Well we also had Varimathras forces joining Sylvanas after the third mission in TFT and in Cata it shows during “I never forgot a Face” but I tried not to add them because one is WC III and we see no more ghouls in WoW under Sylvanas and Cata whas well Cata.
I guess we also have to keep in mind, that the devs weren’t exactly of one mind on the Forsaken, and if there is some mixed messaging that may well stem from that. The WoW Diary (2019) mentions repeatedly, how many of the Devs just called them Scourge and had no interest in being corrected by Metzen, and how they actually prefered them as just a plain evil faction, i.e. here:
Chris Metzen still needed to repeat himself that he wanted the undead to be called the Forsaken. He explained, again, that they were not exactly undead or evil, but rather plagued humans battling for survival. Chris emphasized that the term “Scourge” applied only to abominations, ghouls, and undead monsters rampaging through the countyside. While Chris’s storyline of misunderstood outcasts was compelling, Allen Adham (and others) tried to convince Chris that it might be more fun to play an evil, violent monster.
Let’s just say WoW was never that story-driven, so… I guess we might just let this side-discussion rest anyways, it’s not like anything will be build upon it.
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You going for a cringe award or something? What you said is so dumb it makes my butt itch.
Calia isn’t my boss. The Forsaken gassed the worgen out of that city. Literally. Then we burned the tree they were living in with them in it. And your reasoning is what, that everyone is too stupid to remember? Are you drunk?
She kinda is tho.
But I agree with the rest. Forsaken and Worgen are mortal enemies and should stay like this. I can understand Lilian and Calia trying to help the Greymanes, with the latter accepting this help (I mean, they weren’t here when we conquered Gilneas. They didn’t participate in there whole situation). But I can’t accept that we’re buddy buddy with Worgens in general. And I don’t think we are actually.
No she’s really not. She’s a member of a council. She’s not the faction leader, she’s not even the former leader when the Forsaken were still alive. She gets a vote not a whole decision.
And you know what, I’m all out of understanding. It’s always the Horde characters having to go sniveling to the Alliance doing them little favors. Can we please have a leader that still puts the Horde before the Alliance?
He’s right, she kind of is. She has most legitimacy, has good relationship with Alliance and no baggage. Being also killed at the reunion gives her brownie points.
Most of the Forsaken if not all were people of Lordaeron, which is a medieval nation under Menethil for generations, having Calia as the leader would seem natural to them, and now she’s even one of them.
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That’s why I said “kinda”. She’s not THE leader, but she’s definitly one of those who voted in favour of giving Gilneas back to the Worgens. Maybe I’m wrong but that was her idea, no ? She’s the one who gave us our orders at that moment. So she was “kinda” our boss during that particular mission.
Yeah, that’s why I think the council will not gonna stay.
I believe that Blizzard intends to put an end to the Council and make Calia the only ruler of the Forsaken, as soon as the players have come to accept her over time.
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No, really. She isn’t. Most legitimacy maybe in the Alliance. Not the Horde, not the Forsaken. She’s also not Forsaken but some stupid paradoxical creature. One of the dumbest things to come out of the writing team.
The only actual leader the Forsaken had was Sylvanas. She was the one who took them and organized them into a superpower. The hell did Calia do aside show up?
As far as I know, it was he and Lilly who decided. Faranell, Belmont and the elf well nobody really knows what they had to say about it since they didn’t bother showing up to have an opinion. I know Belmont fought tooth and nail at Gilneas and Faranell gassed them. So I’m not sure they’d feel inclined to just toss their hard earned ground like that. Anyway, it’s speculation, they weren’t there to say yes or no.
And maybe Blizzard should bother to ask the forsaken players how they feel about the stupid light abomination which they promised won’t be turned into the Forsaken leader.
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Sure, but the kingdom of Lordaeron is gone. The Forsaken rule a successor state, and Calia’s heritage isn’t really important for that. There certainly will be royalists that would like her to come back, but being lordaeronian doesn’t make you a royalist, and as we discussed above, the Forsaken aren’t exactly the same people they were before they dided anyways, so I don’t see why we would expect old loyalties to hold up that much.
And Calia isn’t qualified for rulership at all. Before the Storm made clear, that she went from being a sheltered princess, that was only prepred to be married off, to a runaway that eloped with her common husband, to a fugitive, to a priest. And she endeared some Forsaken to her by being nice and caring for their well-being, not by leading them. Blizzard didn’t have to disqualify her from being more than a figurehead, but they kinda did.
…which would probably be relevant, if anyone cared about continuity.
I don’t think it’ll be that explicit. We’ll just always get to see Calia instead of the council, when a quick decision is needed, and in a few years the next batch of devs won’t even remember that she wasn’t supposed to actually be the sole ruler. You could call it a soft retcon, but that sounds too intentional to me.
Blizzard writes their political plots as character plots, and doesn’t stop that plot for a council meeting. Calia won’t have to maneuver politics to act, when the plot wants her to act, just like Baine didn’t have to maneuver politics to reject or admit the Vulpera to the Horde, and how the Alliance just suddenly grew a “High King” with seemingly absolute authority. Heck, even the dragon aspects got a queen.
Blizzard just doesn’t do council politics. Except once in Dalaran, I guess, jay.
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Okay, so this was a review long in the making. Sorry if I end up rambling, but it comes from passion. A passion for good stories. And this wasn’t that.
TIMING:
The first sin. Like, why now? There were so many better times to retake Gilneas. The kingdom being in enemy hands has been an issue since…pretty much the starting experience. Remember the end of MoP when Garrosh was captured and the faction war that began in Cata ended? When Varian was all “This is your last chance, Horde”? That right there would have been the perfect time to say: Also, give us back Gilneas.
I’m pretty sure the only reason why Genn did not walk out of the Alliance at that point is that you can’t just change factions in an MMO. But in Game of Thrones, entire families were killed for less. Also, there was BfA. Constant fighting across all continents. Hell, Lordaeron was attacked. Using Gilneas as the starting point of the invasion would have made sense. But now it just feels out of place. Retaking Lordaeron sort of made sense for the Forsaken in SL cause that expansion was about Sylvanas and her sins. But retaking Gilneas from the Scarlet Crusade has bugger all to do with Dragonflight.
FORSAKEN:
I hate it. Like I understand the intention, but this just makes factions weak. Nobody can sort out their own crap, everyone needs to be involved. There are no exclusive stories anymore. Plus Genn is right (naturally). The Forsaken destroyed the home of the Gilneans. Twice. Hell, the jail bailout mission given by Sylvanas almost burned down Stormwind, the third home they had. Yes new leadership, yadda yadda, but it still sucks. Also, the logic that they need the Forsaken cause they know Scarlet Crusade tactics the most is useless cause the SC didn’t use any special tactics. They just placed a few elites in the city. They didn’t use a special barrier that only opens for light-infused beings like Calia or for those who know some special SC code like what Lilian would know because of her father. They didn’t do anything that required “expert” help. Speaking of which:
SCARLET CRUSADE
Worst choice for enemies. The SC has been the traditional enemy of the undead. They had nothing to do with Gilneans or Worgen. Not to mention they are also not involved with the expansion. Not Primalists, not Flame Druids, not even dragons. Remember how the last time we visited Gilneas City, the bad guy was a black dragon? I know, right? What a weird enemy to have in an expansion called DRAGONFLIGHT. But no, we had evil Catholics fighting people they have never interacted with cause this enabled them to include a totally unnecessary Horde presence.
GENN
I’m glad he still doesn’t want to work with the Forsaken. That would not be in character for him. I’m glad he is still mourning. That is a very human emotion to have. I’m also fine with him giving the throne to Tess. While she is not as cool here as she in in Hearthstone she has been active as one of the Uncrowned against the Legion, helped in the Battle of Darkshore and in defence of Amirdrassil. As far as a princess of a landless kingdom she did very well. Plus Genn has been a King since before the Second War so he is probably only old enough to fight due to the worgen curse. And that cutscene with them was great. The problem is now we learn Genn is a terrible father. And we learn this because we are told. We don’t see the dynamic between Tess and her father in a novel let alone in game. We are just told he is a neglectful, ungrateful bag of censored.
WORGEN
I’m missing the worgen stuff. I get it this was a gilnean development more, but still it seems like the worgen curse is just an afterthought when thinking of the worgen. Even the worgen heritage questline was about how being a worgen is unnecessary really because the important is being fantasy british.
Wouldn’t it have been cool if the Gilneans start losing the battle but just as the leader of the enemy forces come out to gloat their victory they all transform and go one winged angel on the invaders? I’m more of a vampire fan but even I am getting starved for epic werewolf moments.
THE WHOLE IDEA
Okay, this is less lore and more gameplay but the big, advertised reclamation that is so spoilery it can’t be done on the PTR was just a few minutes of kill quests. Why was it not an ongoing event with rebuilding villages, handing in crafting materials and unlocking daily quest areas? We have seen similar content in…other MMOs (you probably know which one I’m thinking of in particular) and they work very well.
Both in story and in gameplay it is painfully obvious they just remembered Gilneas and quickly wrapped it up so they can focus on the Worldsoul Saga.
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He died on Broken Shore. And his successor was put to the shadows once again. And I am very fraid because the writing on the wall clearly shows that we have to give up all animosities and be friends no matter what. There is no longer place for mistrust, rivarly, hostility, anything.
There are also no more differences between us, as we’re supposed to have exact same priorities now apparently.
This is why I am worried that Rokhan and Talanji will be hit, they’re the loudest anti-Alliance leaders on the Horde left( There is also Geyarah, but who cares about her, she is such a non-entity right now).
Now, for the main subject. I agree with the rest, the questing was underwheling, and biggest sin for me was that it made Forsaken and Worgen cooperate to reclaim Gilneas. The same Forsaken that Worgen lost their home to begin with.
Which can only be topped by Shandris crying her eyes out on Lilian’s shoulder.
Looks like there is no hope left for this game.
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I’m a bit late to this discussion, but I generally think the Gilneas questchain is a pretty good example of the incompetency of WoW’s writing and story team.
They just want to have their cake and eat it. They wanted to have some heroic retaking of Gilneas but weren’t in a position to do so. So instead of trying to find ways to make it work, or just accepting it wasn’t going to work, they decided to just brute force it instead of ignoring any inconsistencies and logic in the process.
The only reason I can think of for choosing the Scarlets is that they aren’t affiliated with any side while also being generically evil enough for nobody to care about killing. The fact that they seem to breed like roaches and never die is looked the other way, as well as the way they somehow infested Gilneas in between the transfer, is weak af or just non-existent. Even control of Gilneas is contradictory, BfA states the Alliance controls it and Shadowlands states the Forsaken holds it, and this “transfer” comes more like an abandoning of the region more than anything else.
Genn’s transferal of leadership, to me at least, just appears to be the defanging of any remaining warhawks among the races/factions rather than a proper abdication and succession. Can’t have anymore faction conflict moving forward, then again after the disaster of the last one both in terms of in-game and meta-story I can’t blame them.
So yeah, not very ideal.
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The problem wasn’t the idea alone, but the execution. They shouldn’t go this hardcore and so black and white. If they’d give reasonable case that would make both factions engaged without painting one as morally black and another as idiotic naive fools, then that would be another story.
Imagine if BfA was about Sea dominance, we enter conflict between Zandalar and Kul’Tiras. And the story is about how Kul’Tirans used opportiunity that Zandalar is weakened after Cataclysm to seize the upper hand. Horde gets to play defensive, Alliance gets to play offensive.
Kathrine isn’t a fool that let her ships disappear and didn’t do anything about it, and Rastakhan is responsible king that has all his hands tied and this is why he needs help.
In the meantime instead of having rear-pulled Titan facility and rear-pulled blood trolls we could see some old fashioned conflict, where we actually witness 2 nations in open war. AND learn some actual history Zandalar is meant to have.
Teldrassil didn’t have to happen, I think Silithus escalation and some other form of sabotage on both sides, would be enough.
But ye I also find it really worrisome that every leader that could act as a warhawk is being removed. There should be more tensions, not less. And I don’t even mean that there has to be total escalation all the time, but at the very least mistrust and rivarly.
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I feel like very rarely does any idea sound bad on paper, with enough elbow grease, I am sure the Scarlets controlling Gilneas or/and the last faction war story could have turned out well.
I think this just boils down to the fact that there were so many interesting and dynamic ways to write the faction war in BfA, yet either due to incompetence, ignorance or “wanting their cake and eat it” type of storytelling they picked a version which came out terrible.
Admittedly, looking back on it I think a lot of the problems stem from the unsatisfactory ending of the faction war between WotLK to the end of MoP. And the fact that it ended in such a terrible state (still having massive tension between certain races, leaders etc…) probably made them think that an all-out war was the only option left to sort out there difference; funnily enough, if the story was to take a natural/logical state after the war it would’ve made things a lot worse than before.
As much as I would like more of a cold war/proxy war type feeling, there were too many unresolved issues built up from what I put previously, perhaps you could twist it and have some kind of Alliance imperialism be the cause of the conflict and use that as a way for the Horde to rally together while having the Alliance indecisive due to division, a flat out war needed to happen.
I just don’t know how I feel about this, it is clear they want to move on past the faction stuff, and given their track record of faction conflict I don’t blame them. But at the same time, it has been integral to the Warcraft universe.
Like having War of Warcraft being all about peace and feelings? I do believe certain ideas could be bad period. I was trying to come up with idea on how to make engaging story without painting one side or another as super evil or incompetent.
Becuase I do believe that if the foundation of Warcraft is a conflict, then it should stay true to it’s roots. There are many forms of problems and conflicts, and I believe that cultural differences, economy and priorities of subfactions could also play it’s role to make entertaining story, and not just between H/A but within them as well. There are so many playable races and I find it hard to believe that everyone sees eye to eye.
I just don’t believe that one extreme should be treated with another extreme. Golden middle should be sought. Because is it a satisfactionary that they forced for everyone to hold hands and pretend nothing happened? I’d rather if people were openly hostile than act like that for sure. Because at least I’d know the source of that behaviour. Here? It completely rips you off the experience and makes you wonder what happpened to their heads.
The only silver ligning that I saw from the total war that BfA brought would be to reset the positive relations, and force some creative writing to work around inconveniences. Like splitting Cenarion cicle to no longer be neutral. And therefore focus on branches of druidism that aren’t so nelf-heavy. And having nelves to be again ‘savage’.
I just watched the clips from Warcraft 2 reforged, and it really feels like different franchise. I’d love more of that. More action, more unapologetic leaders, and people that could even be die-hards.
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I fear it is too late to make nelves savages. That ship sailed when the playable factions were determined in wow.
Back in TFT we had a Night Elf Campaign AND a Human campaign. In fact, if we count the Bonus campaign these are the four factions: Night Elf, Alliance, Undead, Horde.
This is what made sense.
But of course, this no longer matters cause everyone is friends now so they can join up and fight the Lich Ki…no, he is dead. Okay so the Burning Le…what? Okay, so Dea…hold on. Welp, at the very least we have the Old G…dammit.
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I don’t think that nelven involvement in Alliance was the reason they got defanged. I’d sooner say neutral CC did more harm. Just because they’re affiliated with Alliance doesn’t mean they need to be super loyal to it. It could be alliance of connvenience, enemy of my enemy is my friend (like Forsaken had), but the moment “the High King” was pushed this is where things started to look dire, becuase it not only undermined nelves but other factions that are in Alliance.
Alliance appeal was that it was coalition of independant kingdoms but Alliance was turned to a blue Horde, with Blue Warchief. Where I believe the differences between subfactions would be amazing factor for a great story alone.
If we want to go into technicalities Lich King was down mostly because of Argent Crusade, DeathWing because of Aspects and Earthen Ring, Legion - mostly lead by Alliance Champions and again neutral factions, I didn’t see any big Horde lore figure doing something substantial. Unless you count Liadrin in Vindicar basement a meaningful involvement.
And in each expansion there were animosities, there were some rogue agents and wild cards. Everybody remembers Putress THAT was twist!
Taylor and Nazgrim made Sha awaken in Jade Forest, THAT is interesting turn of events because WE are responsible for it.
I prefer it this way, it is not some distant cosmic mumgo jumbo but our factions that are contributing. This is us, and this is our thing.
In the end we are each other most significant nemesis because we know each other the best, we have a long history, and we have a lot of failuers in our pockets. I’d rather work on that rather than creating utopia where everyone is happy, cooperative and has no significant flaws. That is a boring story.
Jailer and Fryakk are not egnaging antagonists and this third party enemies come and disappear and leave no real impact on you.
We’re engaging to each other. Nelves and Worgen hated Forsaken with passion for a very good reason, and trolls hate humans (and elves but since TBC that is all swepped under the rug) for also a very good reason. When enemy hits your home this gets really personal.
But it requires some bold decisions, and to have unapologetic figures to stirr things up. I really disliked Garrosh for what he did to the Horde, but I appreciated him for who he was - a man that was supposed to stirr things up, and he did. I hoped that the same things could be done to Alliance, to have not-so good players on their side, maybe have House of the Nobles questioning Anduin’s politics and seeking to dethrone him for being biggest Horde apoligist on blue team and never serving people of Stormwind to begin with.
I really enjoy personal stuff, something defined and unique to be explored and I hate homogenisation with passion. This is why I wanted to split Cenarion Circle to 3 factions. - OG one with nelves (and tauren?) , The Wicked one that would be Alliance only and has Worgen and Kultirans that are focused on connection between nature and death, spookyness and witches.
And we could have Horde exclusive druidic faction for trolls, that is focused on Loa, beasts, and usage of their abilities in warfare, and increasing their capabilities by reaching to their primal nature.
It might be tricky to pull, but I’d love if the there was a patch that would have meaningful stories on exploring different druidic branches, that are more personal and down to earth instead of otherwordly and cosmic, and to involve some rivarly between said factions.
Instead we have Hand of Tyr, where every paladin order is lumped together despite their supposed differences. Like Sunwalkers and Perlates being the biggest ones.
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Lets Pretend.
Lets Pretend that Forsaken Catapults once again launching Blight and Plague at Gilneas will be something that Gilneans will not have a problem with.
Lets Pretend that many Gilneans did not die under the Blight and Plague of the Forsaken.
But it’s okay because they are aiming it at the Scarlet Crusade now?
Lets Pretend that the Scarlet Crusade are a legitimate threat in the World of Warcraft and not a scapegoat for bad story telling.
Lets pretend that old grudges between the Gilneans and Forsaken does not exist and they have not been fighting each other whenever they could - Silverpine Forest - Stormheim during the Legion invasion.
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I really enjoy personal stuff, something defined and unique to be explored and I hate homogenisation with passion. This is why I wanted to split Cenarion Circle to 3 factions. - OG one with nelves (and tauren?) , The Wicked one that would be Alliance only and has Worgen and Kultirans that are focused on connection between nature and death, spookyness and witches.
And we could have Horde exclusive druidic faction for trolls, that is focused on Loa, beasts, and usage of their abilities in warfare, and increasing their capabilities by reaching to their primal nature. <
(I hope I did not mess up the quotation)
Dude, I would love that. Harvest Witches were the first human druids we bumped into, yet it got no story development.
Heck, we know that Kul Tirans are actually Gilneans who like to sail. So by association Drust witches could actually make more sense as villains. More so than Scarlet boredome anyway.
Not to mention, as you have said neither harvest witches nor drust thornspeakers have anything to do with Wild Gods or Cenarius.
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Another stupid is that the Scarlet Crusade have been trying more than anyone else to destroy the Forsaken.
Their hatred of the Forsaken are worse than Gilneans.
Sooooooooo Nobody thought to keep an eye out on the country now that the Gilneans were driven out?
Fertile land - animals and livestock for food and meat - intact city for accommodation and shelter.
Other than a Blizzard GM spawned an entire Scarlet Crusade army into Gilneas. How would a force that big sneak past the undead noses of the Forsaken?
Another stupid is that the Alliance are in the debt of the Horde. Even though it was the Horde that drove the Gilneans from their country in the first place. Gilneas was practically given back to the Alliance by the Horde. So when will the Horde call in that debt?
It was a motley force calling themselves 7th Legion but looked like remnants of the armies from Battle for Azeroth.
In exchange what? Ignore the Alliance dead that the Forsaken have collected? Since Undead can’t reproduce and all. Lordaereons - Kul Tirans - Stormwind - Night Elves - Gilnean Humans.
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