The alliance isnt in debt of the Horde, if was the opposite and now they are even because the alliance helped cleaning lordaeron in SL.
And yes- even calia recall the debt is paid.
So alliance shouldn’t worry aber Horde call in for an debate
Technically it was the player character and his/her adventure in Maldraxxus and the ShadowLands that led to cleansing the plague from Lordaeron. Not the Alliance itself.
It was a tactical move. With the loss of Sylvannas’ Valkyr the Forsaken forces were spread too thin and could not hold Gilneas anyway. As Undead their greatest weapon is attrition. As the living need to rest - be fed - need supply lines etc… But losing their ability to create new Undead means they could be exterminated.
So simply withdrawing was not enough but helping to retake it is undeniably a good will gesture. Good will gestures could buy time for the Forsaken.
Perhaps I missed something. But what Calia Menethil actually said was “It is. And as promised the Forsaken will take our leave. This land is yours. As it should be.”
Not contesting territory that with the help of the Horde the Forsaken conquered is very much handing the Gilneans now a member of the Alliance back their country.
Players can see the NPCs the rebuilding efforts immediately taking place as Human and Worgen Gilneans returned. Gathering the rest from wherever they fled is an ongoing task but news will spread.
Time will be needed especially if rumours are true of the Forsaken coming from Underground - Undercity and building an above ground city or kingdom. Old grudges will always resurface especially since it is called WARcraft.
You can’t put it past the Horde to not use leverage. Balance of power is constantly shifting.
Even if you set aside grudges. For those that have actually been to the Undercity will see those captured by the Forsaken and put into all sorts of gruesome experiments and horrible torments.
The Horde might ignore that. But many people still see the Forsaken as Scourge.
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“I never thought I’d be fighting side by side with the deaders.”
“How about fighting side by side with friends?”
“Aye, I could do that.”
roll credits
I’m sorry to say, but I think that anyone who is expecting anything to come from this cooperation, be it debts or shifts in the “balance of power” is deluding themselves right now. They have been communicating for 2 years now, that the factions and their coflict are essentially dead, while just retaining a token commitment to the “diverse perspectives” they bring.
“Realistically this and that should follow from that” is pretty useless, when we are already clear on nothing here being natural, unforced or realistic. We can only intuit the devs intentions from the content they put out, but in this case it’s not really rocket science: We stand TOGETHER! against bigots and racists.
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Yeah the girly pow wow with Princess Tess Greymane and Lilian Voss was too strange.
Yeah DEI and ESG is running rampant and infected the Blizzard Dev team in WoW.
DEI = Diversity Equity Inclusion. ESG = Environmental Social Governance.
It is not really the World of WARcraft anymore.
Dragonflight is basically My Little Pony Friendship is Magic but with Dragons.
So the direction that WoW is going is concerning. New human kingdoms of Stromgarde upcoming.
Think there is a push to blur the factions into one.
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To be honest, depending on the circumstances I wouldn’t even mind that. I probably agree with them in thinking that at that point the faction conflict will never seem believable anymore, and that it might be time to drop it. I would even agree that with the way they played it, creating factions along racial lines is a bit of a relic of the past, when different groups of different races have now cooperated that much.
But if you are removing that conflict, you better have an alternative ready to go. The game was still build on constant conflict, and an us vs. them feeling. So give us a them. I don’t care if they let us choose a side in any upcoming lore conflict, if they create a long-lasting NPC faction of vanilla mortals with interesting characters to pit us against for the next 15 years, or even if they divide us up in new light vs void factions or whatever they can come up with. But they better have something planned other than “we have to save the world from evil. Together. United. Working side by side. Rising about our differences. Letting go of old hate. In violent cooperation. Together.”
…but yeah, doesn’t seem like they have anything in stock other than that right now.
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After around 16 years of faction pride why throw it in the bin now?
They might have to change the name and rebrand then. Like Total War Warhammer or Warhammer 40k without battles and wars. Peace is just a temporary respite before the next conflict.
The Alliance and Horde are now global superpowers but they are strong BECAUSE of their conflicts. If they push for a My Little Pony Friendship is Magic style of World of Warcraft. Then peace will weaken them for the next conflict.
Faction conflicts might not be full blown wars but it can be small scale conflicts. Instead of the entire faction it can just be some races. A lot of people have grudges with the Forsaken like the Kul Tirans for what they done to Derek Proudmoore, The Zandalari after Rhastakhan was killed by the Alliance mostly Kul Tiran forces.
The new allied races have to find a place for themselves somewhere, So there could be conquests and maps having to be redrawn.
Uniting against the latest big bad evil is the only trick that they are playing. It’s like going to a comedy show where they repeat the same jokes you heard 4 times over already.
The Centaur vs Tauren was kind of relived when Baine went on a rampage against one of their clans.
could be optimistic but they might surprise us.
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Because it’s already been in the bin far too long and far too often and it smells of it. When I saw them trying to bring up faction pride in BfA I could already only roll my eyes at it. I knew from the start how that would have to end, and I was right on that. And it certainly hasn’t gotten better since.
And the fact that they are “global superpowers” is a big reason for why the conflict doesn’t work for me anymore, When every border skirmish becomes a world war, with genocidal to world-ending scales, the little border conflict doesn’t work anymore. We have a cold war situation, and direct conflict must be avoided, because else everything will be lost. I don’t know about you, but proxy wars through other groups don’t exactly scream “faction pride” to me, either, more “doom and gloom”.
As I said, yes. But there are many better things they could be doing.
They gave frickin’ flowerpicker Baine a questline to make him let go of his old hatreds, that were never a thing before, and were overcome after. That’s just the playbook I was complaining about. They only have one story about these enmities right now: How anyone is wrong for holding on to them and how everything works out, once you overcome them.
From this disgusting questline , the only thing we saw was that Baine was a useless lump of a man child , with mental trauma and a bunch of insecurities . Thankfully mama Maila , his future “wife” and new behind the scenes ruler of all Tauren asked us to take care of her little baby-boy , until she could come swaddle him in his blankie-wanky .
Lol @ “flowerpicker Baine”. Sad to say he is a wasted character. I remember when he held / manhandled Sylvannas to let her know how easy he can break her body. During the “trial” of Garrosh Hellscream after the Siege of Orgrimmar.
Then he went from that to become the lackey of Nathanos Blightcaller in Battle for Azeroth and a prisoner of war. He could have finally settled things with Magatha Grimtotem. Instead of just driving the Grimtotem away from ThunderBluff. They just literally had him sat on the sidelines in Oribos.
HOW they handle things is important.
Yes it is a terrible method their story for being gifted back Gilneas. However if they say for example have Tess Greymane through the Uncrowned the Rogue Order Hall in Legion expansion was to reach out to Vanessa Vancleef then as their leader she CAN bring the Defias Brotherhood to help rebuild Gilneas.
While the nobles of Stormwind screwed them over the nobles of Gilneas are very different. Talking to Darius Crowley after its reclamation / being gifted back. Shows that there are many many empty houses.
Tess Greymane might be chummy with Lilian Voss now. But she knows that peace does not last. A strong Gilneas could be a deterrence to future threats to clan and country. There will be many things that will test her rule.
Recalling the Gilneas Liberation front could be something difficult to do. As just as in any war there are people on both sides that still want to annihilate the enemy.
So keeping their more bloodthirsty people in check could be an alternative to world or large scale wars for the Alliance and Horde.
Blizzard devs already made it known that there will never be another Battle for Azeroth sized war again.
But ongoing conflicts can still happen. Such as the Darkspear and Zandalari Trolls will have to secure the secrets to siphoning and killing off their Loa. Zul in the Zandalari civil war used the Drakkari’s secrets to do just that.
The living must find ways to make sure the Horde can’t force their dead into Undeath like they done to Derek Proudmoore and other of their dead.
Peace in WoW does not make sense. Other than temporary pauses between conflicts.
Speaking of DEI in the Stormwind Humans Heritage armour quest they covered up Vanessa Vancleef’s legs. Same as they covered up Lady Admiral Jaina Proudmoore’s stomach. So far Valeera Sanguinar has not been given a digital Burqa in line with DEI. Since these things are now Haram.
That’s exactly what we are doing right now, though. “There will always be bigots, so go and kill 10 Scarlets”. “Some Night Elves can’t forgive Teldrassil and now just want to see the world burn, so kill 10 Pirmalsits and 5 Druids of the Flame”. There are nods to the old conflicts, and it’s our job to put those people that won’t let go down.
I can tell you, that alone isn’t working for me at all.
We do have Big black bare chested man and Genderless burly females called the Djaradin . Good job DEI ?
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Yeah I must admit it smells of M-She-U shenanigans.
www".“youtube”."com/watch?v=35anNAmZnA4&ab_channel=Nerdrotic
Where male characters are killed off, made incompetent, denigrated. It is pushing for female leads and not quite girl bosses.
Queen Talanji - Fair enough the rightful heir to the Zandalari throne and was actively trying to face threats to her people.
Lady Admiral Jaina Proudmoore - After years of knowing that she betrayed her father and people. The girl version of the prodigal son story returns and is welcomed ad their leader? This was mishandled.
Calia Menethil is returning but the Defiance Council is being lead by Lilian Voss and Calia Menethil. The door is always open for the rerturn of the Banshee Queen Sylvannas after she gets tired of doing dailies in the Maw.
Queen Tess Greymane. It seems that the Gilnean leadership will have MORE work to do not less in order to rebuild and strengthen their nation.
First Arcanist Thalyssra led her people back from the brink despite the sorry state she and her people fell to.
It’s not that female leaders existing is problematic but HOW it is handled. Things done through the DEI / ESG lens usually fails.
Audiences are tired of the: tear down the male characters to elevate the female characters method.
Gone are the days of Broxxigar the red standing strong against the Legion and being the only mortal to actually wound Sargeras himself.
Gone are the days of Grommash Hellscream leaping through a wall of flames to bury Gorehowl in the face of Mannaroth the pitlord.
Gone are the days of Alexandros Mograine the Ashbringer who stood against hordes of undead single handily slaying countless of them.
Gone are the Days of Varian Wrynn one shotting a fel reaver to buy time for the Alliance to flee their defeat at Broken Shore.
it’s not just how it is done , but it is a HUGE part of it yea .
Instead of listings all the female leaders , you will have easier time to list all the male leaders left .
From horde we have
Baine > controlled by Maila
Ranger Lord > Controlled by his new wife
goblin ? I have no idea
Alliance we have
Gelbin > waiting for him to turn in a diaper waring cyborg .
Turalion > who already is taking back stage to his wife and will probably get killed of as a light biggot .
The rest are a bunch of councils , who are led by some women …
Even the Valdarekn loading screen , you see the TWO BIG FEMAMLE leaders and 3 tiny and placed under them fashion boys .
I liked female leaders when done right and I like Jaina , Sylvanas and Tyrande , hell even Alex and Yesera , but this right now is just disgusting propaganda .
They can’t even portrait one normal family or interaction between male and female .
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I think this goes back to the Pandaren Emperor ShaoHao’s question. WHY DO WE FIGHT?
Somehow JUST BECAUSE is not enough anymore.
If you go back to Outland. Those that were left behind. You saw that there were after effects of War. Now with the current WoW story writing. It is treated as: The war is over now smoke your standard issue peace pipes and lets pretend there aren’t unresolved issues.
Such as Swamp of Sorrows. Wanting revenge against the Horde that killed their parents. It’s almost like it is an endless cycle.
At least the ongoing themes of orphans has been consistent. But they don’t really follow what happens to the orphans that grow up. Children of the Alliance and Horde races are playing together on the ‘My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic But With Dragons’ - Dragon Isles. So time will be needed to rebuild.
This is problematic. Somehow feminine females and masculine males are also HARAM. Look at She-Ra the Princess of Power. In the 1980s you could tell she is a girl. In 2018 that is an androgynous boy in a dress and wig.
Blizzard Entertainment DOES have activists that find Male and Female problematic. You see this now that after around 18 years in character creation. Male and Female have been replaced by body type 1 and body type 2.
Faction neutral races such as Pandaren you can tell Males and Females apart. But Dracthyr are indistinguishable from each other.
So yes it would make sense that in the DEI / ESG era where companies are more focused on a tickbox to improve their DEI score and that sweet sweet Blackrock bail out money. Rather than continue to entertain their paying customers and fans.
Djaradin males and females, The dragon kin species are almost all androgynous. How Woke can it get until it is no longer World of Warcraft?
Remember Volition was ruined with the failure of Saintsrow 2022.
Rocksteady is being ruined with Suicide Squad kills the justice league. Where there are 791% searches for how to refund the game.
Monster girls Monster boys genres do exist. So it was possible to create male and female versions except they will not do so. Androgynous is the new normal it seems.
Which is why I don’t think the player, as a representative of his super power, squashing some fringe groups that would like to keep the wars going is never gonna be enough to get any war feeling. And you just can’t magic interesting dissidents from nothing and have them command power to rival an empire.
So yeah, I don’t see how they would do any conflict below world war level that will actually feel relevant, as long as the factions are super powers. You can have some cold war style spy plots going on, but that’s not exactly what people signed up for in "WAR"craft either, is it? Not the kind of thing that some macho orc can hit with an axe.
That’s why I think any solution to the current lack of conflict can’t really come from the current factions. The world powers must either be smashed to pieces or matched in power, for anything interesting to happen with them.
Well we randomly got that Garrosh cinematic in Shadowlands. That was a bit of nostalgic fun, wasn’t it?
To be a fan means you are invested to whatever degree. So how they mishandle the intellectual property does suck.
Non fans and tourists will ask the: “Why do you care?” that proves they are a tourist.
But yes. the Male characters are taking a beating. After his coming of age that his willpower - faith - conviction is strong enough to call forth the Light in the Maw itself. The World of Warcraft version of Hell. A little phase of mind control has turned Anduin Wrynn into some brooding emo teenager.
Like What the Actual____Kitty Litter. A feat never before achieved by any Paladin or user of the Light istelf! is gone like a fart in the wind.
Will Rokhan of the Darkspear actually lead the Darkspear or will he come under the rule of Queen Talanji?
With Troll Lore the Darkspear stood with the Horde even against the rest of Troll kind. But the Zandalari tribes united the other Troll Tribes under them. Now the Darkspear are the next to come under them?
Gallywix made the Bilgewater Cartel into quite the powerhouse. That Gallywix alone was able to fund the Horde war effort in Battle for Azeroth is an astonishing accomplishment (for a Goblin).
But now he is gone. Gazlowe is not a leader he is just a very good engineer.
Lorthemar Theron is all lovey dovey. So Blood Elf + Nightborne bonds could be strengthened. Political marriages are not unheard of. But the old elf seem to have married for love.
It will not surprise me if Lorthemar takes a back seat to Lady Liadrin.
Gelbin Makkatorque have united Gnome and MechaGnome kind. But the homeland for the Gnomes have been ignored for so long. Gnomeregon seems to be a foot note in the minds of Blizzard devs.
Prince Erazmin only wanted to stop his father, fully mechanizing the Gnomes. But he did not have any thought after that and left Gelbin Mekkatorque to rule. This is extremely not Gnomish a race known for their intellect and ideas.
There will be a void theme. So Alleria Windrunner will naturally take the lead. But will she become yet another Girl Boss trope? This leads to things such as the Marvels 2023 box office failure. Where everyone is a girl boss. Then you have the mandatory gender swaps and race swaps to score DEI points.
Even the players. Yes us. Got tired of being the EPIC legendary heroes. Now it is a welcome change to just be adventurers doing our thing.
Sylvannas before becoming the Warchief was a good character. As she formed the Forsaken - She thwarted the plan of the Nathrezim Dreadlords - Was a constant thorn in the side of the Lich King and ongoing threat. To Tyranical girl boss that was NEVER truly evil but the good part the “real” Sylvannas was there all along just held captive by her evil side.
Now there is that meme that South Park Into the Panderverse has created.
Where the Kathleen Kennedy version of South Park said: “Put a chick in it! Make her lame and gay!”
www".“youtube”."com/watch?v=gtx0QV4-VxY&ab_channel=pp21
Princess Talanji did not break down after not only watching her father die in her arms but being bound to Bwonsamedi the loa of death. When asked “What are your orders!” She took charge. As a leader should. Then made a good effort to chase after her fathers killers. The Alliance got rid of one threat with Rhastakhan and the Zandalari navy now Alliance intelligence has to assess the new Queen of the Zandalari Trolls. To reorganize her government and give the Zandalari people the leadership they need is amazing.
Strong - Masculine - Competent - Intelligent male characters are problematic in the DEI / ESG era. Thrall is a brooding old man that can’t even guide his son properly when you watch the Orc heritage armour questline.
The World Shaman was not a spiritual leader so it would make sense that Drakka became the Farseer or spiritual leader for the Greenskin Orcs. But competent males can still coexist alongside of competent females. Since males and females generally compliment each other.
Another stupid thing is mishandling of Tobias Mismantle.
He literally sired / turned every single Worgen player character. Now they just have him sat on the roof of Stoneward Prison where you held off Feral Worgen.
After reading that post a few times… I have no idea if and where you are disagreeing with me. Sorry, I don’t really understand what points you are trying to make, because it reads like every sentence is making a different one. So… Okay, I guess.
Seems like I am getting false flagged on this thread.
Difficult to have a conversation with ongoing censorship.
Oi Wimbert ,
Did I dream it , or we had a whole conversation here yesterday and now it is all vanished …
Did you steal it ?
I know trusting gnome rogues with pirate hats is generally a bad idea , but daaaamn .
Spooky things happenin on this here forum .