This partš±
Is there any mention that they didnāt exist before them?
The use of arcane magic is described by Blizzard in their Legion class previews as balancing the ebb and flow of incredible mystic energies, so I wanted to look into that.
All Elves have an innate understanding of arcane magic due to their proximity to the Well of Eternity, which prompted their transformation from Trolls to Elves. The arcane still must be studied like any other craft, but Elves have an innate sense for the flow of magic, able to navigate its various currents and tides with relative ease, in a way that other races do not have. Elven teachers often have difficulty with non-Elven students due to this lack of innate understanding.
Human mages, taught by the Elves, practice the arcane in a similar way. Undead mages are believed to be somewhat more skilled at it, as while they lack the innate understanding of an Elven mage, their dulled senses in undeath limit worldly distractions, and may grant a clearer feel for the flow of magic. Their innately strong willpower also makes for dedicated students, and it is not uncommon for an individual bereft of a need to eat, sleep, or take breaks to master the arcane in a shorter span of time than their living counterparts.
Gnomes study and utilise the arcane in a cold, intellectual manner, akin to mathematics or science. They do not āfeelā the currents, but rather carefully predict and project where the flow of magic will go, and utilise their knowledge of magic to redirect it, and exert control. The arcane is envisioned by their magi as a set of events with predictable outcomes, but it is down to the mage in question to work based on whether the magic is in a state of ebb or flow, and what to do about it.
Trolls understand magic in very different terms to other races, and often dictate the flow of magic by use of rituals, bargains with spirits, and other such superstitions. Troll pyromancers or cryomancers will more often place relevant offerings to the spirits of fire and frost, rather than attempt to understand magic through cold, mathematical methods. These rituals are usually accompanied by ritual fetishes and foci that allow a race usually deemed spiritual to control magic that lends itself better to cold logic.
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The Highborne could have been established (as an official caste) somewhere between 15,000-12,000 BPD, depending on when Azsharaās rule started, while the Trolls likely learnt Arcane magic somewhere between 12,800 (this because of their pact with Lei Shen, which was discribed as lasting for many years between the then High Priest, who was allowed to live for longer because of Lei Shen, as opposed to centuries) and 12,200 (the year in which they both died).
So while itās definitely possible that the Arcanitals were established before the Highborne, the window is quite small. Itās undisputible, though, that the Trolls learnt the Arcane after the Elves.
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I thought it canon the trolls where unaware of the arcane and the novelty of the arcane made them lose bad?
And I think that was the high elves stealing juju trinkets to study? We donāt have the elves PoW on this.
My headcanon on this is that the elves either disenchant it, studied the troll magic to counter it. Or was the sort of curiosity a human has to a monkey using a tool.
To be fair, even as far as WoW is concerned the elves have a good habit of taking other peoples things and reverse engineering them for themselves.
More of the subject of the stealth isnāt quite worthwhile from my understanding.
Trolls may be decent with curses and their voodoo. But for enchantments, elves make wonders and have for millennia. It seems more troll arrogance that the elves are playing catch up to the trolls, and surpassed them only by theft.
Elementals make deals with Shamans cause they are lonely and just want to have friends to talk to
I think that was more due to the fact that a) more night elves used magic than there would have been āarcanitalsā and b) the night elves simply were more proficient at it.
One NPC from Vanilla and an archaeological artefact added in Cata related to him.
https ://wow.gamepedia. com/Zanza_the_Restless
https ://wow.gamepedia. com/Eerie_Smolderthorn_Idol
And depending on which you one of them you look at, itās either magic taken from ātroll spell castersā or directly form a Loa, unless Zanza became a Loa after his death.
More like they were attuned to the Well of Eternity, and the trolls wasnt.
Which seems to be the case.
That, and they managed to learn a lot from the Well itself. It didnāt only provide power, it also provided knowledge and insight. So, they were probably more proficient and attuned to Arcane magic.
Trolls are descended from Troggs. It takes a little explaining:
Trolls have been established to be one of the older races, but no longer predate the Titans (as they did in the oldest lore), which means they have to come after the Troggs - the first race created by the Titans, and disregarded as a failure in favour of the Earthen, which themselves led to later Titanforged races (Giants, Vrykul, Mogu etc).
The Troggs and Trolls donāt seem to share a strong resemblance at first glance, however a number of key physiological similarities are present: Troggs are coated in a shaggy coat of fur, while Trolls are variously stated to be covered in a thin, downy fur, and both races have long arms that culminate in three-fingered hands. They also have three toes.
But wait, donāt Trolls only have two toes? Not exactly. Their third toe has moved back along the foot to become the heel, something I can tell goes back to at least WarCraft 3, and is still present on (some) Troll models in WoW.
Why this odd adaptation? To give Trolls, with their longer limbs and propensity to move in open terrain, a more efficient plantigrade stride, as opposed to the faster but less efficient digitigrade stride of their subterranean Trogg relatives. Itās likely that this came about as Trolls developed along with other early Curse of Flesh races like the Mogu and Vrykul to inhabit the surface in their respective regions.
What about underground? And what about, as Iām sure youāre wondering, the Drogbar? Like the Troggs, they are named as failed creations of the Titans (by Xalāatah, so take it with a pinch of salt).
Some of the physical traits observed in Trolls are observed in Drogbar, most notably the long pointed ears, long arms and large tusks (Drogbar tusks jut from the lower jaw, which is also true for female Trolls, while male Trolls have theirs in the upper jaw), Drogbar have been made to fill roles that were filled by non-specific Troll slaves of Deathwing in earlier lore, and one quest explicitly refers to them as āRock Trollsā. Are Drogbar confirmed as an intermediate between Trogg and Troll? Perhaps, but perhaps not.
The main reason I put it into question is the physical structure of their hands and feet. Unlike both Trogg and Troll, Drogbar have five fingers and five toes. An oversight by the art team perhaps, but it could also be seen as evidence against the direct connection. A possible explanation is that the Drogbar arenāt the ancestors of Trolls or a direct part of the Troll lineage, but rather a second, divergent family from the Trogg lineage, taking a different evolutionary path that suited their underground lifestyle.
It is possible that many other races of Azeroth have similar origins. Furbolg and Pandaren are implied to have shared ancestry, and itās entirely possible that the same lineage produced Vulpera, Wolvar, Gnolls, and even Tuskarr.
Iāve been on a binge watching YouTube Creationists for a lark, so Iāve spent a lot of time thinking about evolution recently.
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No.
Donāt make me stab thee. >:c
Iām pretty sure they re-retconned this so now trolls do predate the titans again.
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Wowpedia says the Trolls showed up āthousands of yearsā after the Old Gods got beaten up by the Titans, citing Chronicles 1 as the source. Since I donāt own the Chronicles books I canāt confirm that for myself though.
Iāll shear you if you dare claim that trolls come from troggs!
HOW DARE YA! REEEEEEEEEEEEE
No, that got retconned after an uproar about Shadows of the Horde getting retconned.
So they made the lore as it was in Shadows again.
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As earlier talked about in this very same thread (First proposed by Levey, then continued on by me), we know that -all- the trolls trace their origins to Zandalari trolls, and Zandalari trolls themselves are among the most ancient races of Azeroth- Alongside Yaungol (Tauren), and of course the Aqir (Mantid, Qiraji, Nerubians).
Like most other races, I shared the sentiment with Levey that Trolls, being non-titanic creations, probably evolved as most non-titanic creations did: Evolving from the children or influence of wild gods (e.g. Tauren, Quilboar) to natural beasts of Azeroth. The beasts that Zandalari themselves share closest resemblance to, consequently, are with the archosaur species of their own natural habitat, Zandalar, namely the Sabertusks.
This is further supported by the fact that Zandalari trolls default their cat form as a sabertusk, though this could be a simple reverence thing (though, as far as we know, there is no Sabertusk loa that we know of).
Anyway, the interesting thing about this is that most people associate sabertusks (and most of the wildlife in Zandalar) being cold blooded, as they appear reptilian. Contrary to popular belief, current archeological data (at least from IRL) shows that most archosaurs (The pre-lineage that includes modern crocodiles, non-avian dinosaurs, birds and possibly (?) Pterosaurs) were at least mesothermic (Or endothermic), as their high-walk (Quadroped dinosurs) or in the case of theropoda (2 legged dinosaurs) and active lifestyle suggests. This means that the said beasts can/could function just fine in colder environments.
However, this all aside, I think, as I did back then, that Sabertusks are in fact part of a much more ancient lineage: Stem-mammals, whichād also support as to why Zandalari seem to share primarily mammalian instead of reptilian features (Internal gestation, dedicated earbones, specialized teeth for different purposes, bipedal locomotion, fur, secondary pallet).
TLDR: Zandalari are not reptilian, but stem-mammalian in origin and dinosaurs arenāt exo-but endo/mesothermic.
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I have looked but not found any source on this, rather everything seems to point to Chronicles 1 being considered the canon source; add to this the fact that Zuldazar itself is built atop a Titan installation (Dazarāalor and the seals keeping Uldir contained, in particular), the appearance of Taloc having some echoes of Troll in himā¦ Well, evidence certainly indicates the Trolls date to after the Titans, not before.
The only suggestion of Trolls predating the Titans is the old questline in Stranglethorn that references āthe Wanderersā, though thereās no telling if thatās simply been retconned away or could be explained somehow.
Beyond all that, Iām also sticking with the Troggs to Trolls theory because it annoys Jessicka.