Going back to what you quoted me on briefly, I make this argument on the basis where the wall between IC and OOC is broke down briefly for the sake of amusement’s sake.
For example, when somebody references song lyrics from an amusing OOC song.
I don’t personally like this as it takes me out of the moment, but I don’t comment as I see it as a mostly harmless attempt to amuse people OOC.
I apply the same ruling to people’s delivery of “IC Hate crimes” like racism.
If somebody is leaning more towards OOC deliveries, then I can only see it as more targeted towards the OOC player.
Going back to the subject of racism, I think we both have similar approaches IC. Though, you also don’t have to give Blood Elves much reason to be racist, it comes with being so far up their own arses.
This in mind, I refer to consistent application of standards and rules. Racism and homophobia are considered “hate crimes”.
So if you want to report one, you have to report the other. If you don’t report one, you cannot justify reporting the other as they are both the same category of infringement.
My personal stance is people trying their best to be IC and immersed in the world shouldn’t be judged for it OOC as that goes against the common decency of keeping IC, IC.
Being “IC” doesnt give a free pass to violate any of the rules, including not spouting homophobic slurs. The hate speech towards racism is also more if you suddenly start calling all black characters in RP the “N-Word” and generally showing hatred due to their skin colour.
An orc dissing a human is within the setting & not a breach of the ToS.
My definition of how the rules should be applied would be covered in your use-case in regards to the racism part. Using such language means you are taking a lot from real world history which I don’t see applying to the lore of WoW. So it falls under my definition of going too meta with your IC depiction which then can be viewed as targeting OOC instead.
As for homophobia. I apply the same standards. If somebody is going around not talking how their race should and using language that is pulled from OOC culture, I don’t see that as valid.
The racial slur for black people isn’t really a thing in WoW, and I imagine lots of the slurs for homosexuals wouldn’t be either.
That is not to say I don’t think there are some valid angles to take. I refer back to my first post mentioning a population deficit. Some of my elves might be more unpleasant to same sex relationships as they are passionate about the blood elves becoming repopulated and they don’t see same sex couples as helping with this problem.
This doesn’t make me a homophobe OOC. In fact, OOC my view is the opposite. Plenty of humans on earth. Same sex couples won’t hurt anyone.
There will be some specific areas where I can see it happen and it not mean that the person doing it hates all gay people. And if they are following the rules like everyone else, we shouldn’t be telling them what to do.
I have my own idea of how Blood Elves should act and behave but I don’t tell people who don’t meet this image how to RP their character and accuse them of lore breaking and doing it to get on my nerves.
If they are following the rules, then they wont be rping an homophobic char and that is fine, and if one cant be told they might be breaking the lore, then they will be blacklisted and ignored.
What does it add/bring to the table at all that couldnt be achieved with litterally anything else? As I brought up in the previous thread multiple times, Azeroth is a completly diffrent world, a completly diffrent history. The humans arent even the same type of humans as us. It has none of the historical rise of homophobia, because it is completly non-existant.
And with all of that, what does it add that -nothing- else could do by playing a homophobic character? I cant think of anything, but I can see it instead being really hurtful to your fellow players who meet such things in real life & want to simply have fun and make stories together here away from all of that.
The RP here isnt some grand way to explore diffrent discussions/ideals or make some kind of point, it’s a thing most of us have as a hobby to get away from life a bit or just have fun. And adding in homophobia into the mix adds nothing, but tarnishes so much more.
There is also the more factual aspect of, do you -really- want to be the pioneer of Azeroth in being a homophobe? Since again, its not existant in the lore, meaning that whatever character you theoretically choose to RP as that will be the first. Do you really want that to be your legacy?
This did come up in the last thread too, and it’s something which Obahar here does to some extent - valueing the greater good of a bloodline over an individuals want or need for same-sex romantic relationships, with his relating specifically to his own bloodline and the bloodlines of other wealthy families.
Generally speaking I feel as if this is detatched enough from real-world homophobic rhetorics which are often based in false notions of masculinity or adherence to religious beliefs to where IC can more easily remain IC, and even then, it’s not often something I just throw out there immediately - I’ve cleared the air about it OOC first on the occasions I’ve brought it up to make sure it’s okay. And while in the instances I have roleplayed, the go-ahead has been given, if somebody were to tell me no, I’d have my character hold his tongue. It might not be what he would do IC, but the person behind the screen matters more to me than my own character on it.
Generally speaking though it is very, very difficult to see a character’s homophobic views as simply a character’s, given that the player has full agency over what the character says and has to type in those things and think to themselves “this is something I am comfortable hitting enter on.”
And while yes, everyone has their own idea of what a race or group of characters should act like in WoW, the difference between a race like elves or draenei acting quirky and ditzy and bordering on comic relief and someone presenting homophobic views in-game is that the latter is potentially a far more negative experience to the person behind the screen given that homophobia may be rampant in their day-to-day life.
Or maybe our real-world historians and archaeologists are covering up the truth when digging up “human” remains. The bones of so-called children may actually be the bones of our dear gnomish allies.
If they are not following the lore and are using slurs which are not applicable in the setting, sure. I agree. But as I gave the example for, I would consider my char who looks down on homosexual couples as homophobic. But I do not consider it lore breaking given the lore behind blood elves.
None of my characters were ever created to champion homophobia and push it like a social movement. Some do not care and others have negative views built off of the dynamic of blood elf law.
Outside of the example I gave, I can’t think of any reason why blood elves would be homophobic as there is nothing in lore that can be extrapolated as such.
It is a small side of more complex characters that rarely comes out anyway. And even when it does, it is just your typical blood elf sneer at a perceived character flaw. None of my characters have a specific way of insulting homosexuality and singling it out.
Outside of this quote specifically, I think we agree. My answer above this quote should relate here.
As for the quote itself, I think that is just something people need to stop doing.
As I already said, my views OOC and IC are the complete opposite.
And even with the agency to say what they like, we also cannot assume that Death Knight role players are just bad people with no positive conscience or that Demon Hunters are edge lords, because they are just interpreting lore and roleplaying something which might be different to how they decide to portray themself in real life.
Tex I feel gave a good example of this when they said they played a homophobic character. A trait that obviously cannot be attributed back to them as a person given what they have said.
It is all down to what you want to portray. I like my characters to have reasonable backgrounds and opinions. Some are more quirky and fun than others, but so long as it makes sense and fits with their personality and game lore.
Or you could have a blood elf character who dislikes any elves who refuse to have children. This character wouldn´t mind same-sex couples, but he would mind it if elves who are part of those couples refused to take part in pon farr.
I have already stated where these ideas come from.
The elves are less than 10% of what they used to be and continue to die in war. It is reasonable to assume there is some expectation of procreating to replenish numbers. They did not survive the Fall to go quietly into the night through simply dying out. Such a mentality has the potential to breed some level of homophobia.
Mainly I have been focused on just the subject of the thread. But to address your point, the characters of mine who look down on homosexual couples for being unable to produce offspring typically look down on heterosexual couples for the same reason if they refuse to have children.
It is an easy issue to equate to same-sex couples by the nature of the relationship. But as I said, they do not specifically target homosexuals if they can apply the same grievances to other people too.
One of my characters is homosexual and ended up in a similar position. They ended up having a child with somebody and almost married them but couldn’t go through with it. They remain as close friends.
These pressures have lasted for years so far as a character flaw/burden for that character and have been a strong part of their story and development.
Now they sit happily with both a child and a partner they can be happy with. And some of my characters who might look down on homosexuals wouldn’t comment on her as the has actively reproduced. So they have no reason to dislike her.