No he didn’t, it was completely random, his sole intention was to harm Azeroth.
Regardless, i can understand being being a fan of the purple skins, but with the RP like here, it’s cringy as hell.
Besides, NEs are becoming gods in 8.1, if that isn’t enough to satisfy you, nothing will.
What? I guess I missed the memo.
No, but your certainly missed Tyrande and their newfound power. From a pathetic, weak little wimp, although brave, since her iteration, she turns into a borderline Mary Sue who can annihilate entire armies just by looking at them.
Or you know, Malfurion suddenly becoming Superman on steroids, despite being easily beaten in the past, he was always overrated by fans, presented as all mighty entity in their eyes, even though he is just a mortal, strong, yes, but dies just as easily. Point being, Blizzard catered to these fans and turned him into a Superman level being. I’d say you should be happy.
The whole writing is non-sensical, the cinematic for Darkshore alone showed orc warriors are useless, weak and small, despite that they should be twice the size of a night elf.
Does this relate to NE’s becoming Death Knights?
I’d love to see Wisp Knights!
muffled snickering
It isn’t so much that people are incapable, it is that just about every fantasy writer since seems to have been. People still cling to recent references, you see people roleplaying Dwarves who hate Elves. What? Where did that come from? There is no instance of that happening until…ah, wait…
No, that is not his -fault- as a person, it does not mean that his linguistic influence cannot be blamed for generations of thought as to what ‘Dwarves and Elves’ are. He did write a different story, and I actually -like- his stories, but when people start to slavishly follow them as some kind of holy writ that this is how Dwarves and Elves are, then it is just a bit odd. He was one author. He was profoundly skilled, but he was one author, his impact on the Fantasy genre does however seem to have set in stone how certain races have to be perceived, and that’s not so cool. Very few authors since seem to have deviated from his ideas, and I am quite glad, that WoW’s writers -did-.
Except it -is- misogynistic. Why could none of these women stand on their own as characters? Why did they all have to follow that -same- trope of needing a human man? We’re not talking real people here, people sat down and wrote this, at what point did they not realise that if a female character is strong enough, she does not -need- to be shackled to a man, especially one of another Species. Why that need to do it not once, not twice, but three times?
Tell me, in all honesty, that you do not think that the Windrunners and their relationships were based on Aragorn and Arwen.
I like his works. Not always his writing style, it is sometimes overly dry, and lacks a sense of immediacy to what is essentially a rapid course of events in the case of the most famous works of his, the Lord of the Rings, but you can’t refute the fact that his works were well reverse engineered, skillfully so, but he is -not- a guru who defines Fantasy as a genre. I mean that is the whole point. No one should be.
I just did…
The only thing that is misogynistic is your logic.
What are you talking about? You seem to assume that when a woman goes into a relationship, that she somehow does it, because she can’t handle her life without a man. A woman can love whoever she damn pleases, no matter if it’s a Human, Elf or Orc (same IRL). That doesn’t have anything to do with strength or competence at all and it certainly doesn’t make her sexually deviant. WTF?
No I don’t and I don’t see how you get this ridiculous idea.
Interracial relationships have been a thing in the real world and fiction for thousands of years.
Nobody said this.
He was a great author (his success speaks for himself) who inspired millions of fantasy writers. If you don’t like someone’s fantasy universe, because it’s too much like Tolkien’s works; Don’t put up with it, and/or even better: Make your own.
yawn “no u”
Why no I haven’t, have you read The Mummy?
Oversimplified to the point of laughable. Funnily enough I wouldn’t mind if the Night Elves were raised back up as glorified Ghouls. As a matter of fact I wouldn’t mind this in the slightest. But this isn’t the case now is it? These are Night Elves with their minds largely intact and working. And now they want to work for the people what killed them and kill the rest of their kin for… reasons??
Right, so when are you actually going to say something of importance to this conversation?
You can turn from being good to bad, or visa-versa, I will not dispute it. But not in the way it has been portrayed in WoW with the Forsaken Night Elves.
My point of the sarcastic comment was to show how much of a joke it was, not that it could never happen in a reasonable way.
How? I explicitly said that a female character does not need to be defined by their relationship to a male character?
That is emphatically -not- what I said. I said that as these are not real people, these are consciously written decisions as to where those characters go. These are not -real- people, they are characters in a story.
Except it is not. I mean you say “Same IRL” except it blatantly is not. We’ve just got Human, IRL. We don’t have Orcs, we don’t have Elves.
The assumption that a female character cannot exist without a male one to cling to is not -my- idea! I mean that is the -exact- opposite of what I am saying. Why do they -need- to be tied to a human male character as opposed to just standing as who they are? Why would Alleria be less of a character without Turalyon, why would Vereesa without Rhonin, why would Sylvanas without Nathanos? That’s misogyny, if a female character is strong, she does not -need- an ‘other half’ to cling to.
You want a really good example? Imperator Furiosa from ‘Mad Max:Fury Road’. She’s not the love Interest, she has a physical infirmity but it is never made an issue, She is a strong and driven character who is not defined by the fact that she is tied to a man. She’s just a strong character in her own right. That is what we need more of, not “Oh Which female NPC can we shack up with which Male NPC?”
As for sexual deviancy, We’re talking different species here. Most countries, certainly the one I live in, have fairly strict laws about a human being having sexual congress with another species, now I appreciate that Azeroth is not Earth, but that is still two different -Species- not Races, having congress. Don’t try to imply that. I have had girlfriends from other ethnic backgrounds, I have never had congress with another -species-. It is not the same thing… To have a ‘Kink’ for another Species is a deviation, in the technical term of the word. As in it is not normal. The morality or whether it is societally acceptable is a whole other matter, but it is not normal.
You don’t? Then tell me this. Why is it always Human males, with Elven females?
What is that, if not a wish-fulfilment?
Except people -constantly- say it! “Oh Elves should be Alliance, because Humans and Dwarves are” as if that is some sort of given. Have people never read other books? Have they even read Tolkein, He has not inspired Millions of Fantasy writers. Thousands maybe, millions no. I don’t -need- to write my own, (Though I am , which has thankfully nothing to do with Elves and Dwarves) Blizzard made their Elves do something different from Tolkein’s Elves, They made them closer to the actual Elves from mythology, which is why I love them.
Don’t end a post with a lazy dismissive comment if you don’t expect one back in return?
Do you mean the Screenplay, or the novel?
I think you may have misused the word “Oversimplified” there, as actually there is a lot of complexity in this. You state “These are Night Elves with their minds largely intact and working” Do you have a source for that? What makes them different from High Elves who were raised from the dead? I mean all the Empirical evidence seems to suggest that they are behaving exactly the way an Undead would.
For some weird reason, this seems to have become an especial problem, when it is Night Elves being risen. I think we all know the real answer, but perhaps if someone could explain?
So you admit you had nothing actually useful to add to the conversation, yet did so anyway?
Doesn’t really matter.
There is, or at least should be. But your normal zombie and what we have going on here are on different ends of the scale and should be treated as such. Painting all Undead as the same just makes it easier to argue a case for it. Thus, presumably, is the reason why you did it.
Playing and watching the scenario perhaps? They are strong enough to be bosses in a warfront, have the memory of what happened in the WoT and so on. Do I really need to explain this?
I dunno’ really, 10,000 years worth of change (the majority of which was under the Sunwells influence), what happens to them when they die (wisps), Elune and the Wild Gods.
Just 3 off the top of my head, funnily enough they are quite big changes to have.
Is that why characters such as Derek, Lillan, Godfrey and the Gilnean Nobility exist? I have yet to find a logical/good reason why the Night Elves would willingly accept the curse of undeath, join the Forsaken and kill their former brother and sisters. And as much as people have argued about this in all the countless threads and posts I have yet to see someone come up with a reason beyond mind control, which is dashed by the “willing” part which the Val’kyr say when rising the Night Elves.
I can fully understand them being annoyed and angry at Tyrande and Elune, but not to the extent where they want to murder their former people. Also, unless their eyes don’t work then I don’t know how you can say “Elune has abandoned us” when talking to what basically is the Avatar of Elune.
I have said this (and many others) so many times, it goes against the establish lore in Silverpine, where the Alliance sends troops of different races to fight the Forsaken because they can’t be raised back up if they die. One of them races is Night Elves. We have yet to be given a reason why the Val’kyr couldn’t do it in Cata’ yet can in BfA.
The Lantern theory is weak and unproven, basically headcanon. More importantly it was also destroyed. As for Heyla I don’t see why she would gift so much to Sylvanas while she recives so little (at least short-term), it kinda goes against her character to do so. Just before you bring the Lich King into this then the Lich King and his empowered Val’kyr could raise Night Elves because of his power level. That easily explains why they can do it in general. But Sylvanas is nowhere near his level, she is not on the same scale as him.
So not only do we have the grounds of said event retconning previously established lore we also have the people being raised willingly doing acts which otherwise they would never do, even if they feel betrayed or alone or angry or otherwise.
So you explain to me why you defend this, why this makes sense.
I just replied to your stance on people turning bad considering you didn’t give me anything else to respond to. But by all means go ahead and respond to what I have put above.
I have said what I wanted to say. Debating with you is completely meaningless and will only result in a boring back and forth.
The posts stand and people can form their opinion.
Well, in either case, yes?
One of the examples I gave was a Higher Functioning Undead, Vladimir Tepes aka Count Dracula. After being risen from the dead he turned directly against his Faith, and became an unholy terror to his people. Now the situation is different, he was not directly raised by a ‘person’, but I do not think it is unfair to say that he did turn against what he stood for in life? Those Kaldorei likewise seem to be Higher Functioning. They aren’t Zombies, or gangling ghouls. There has to be a -reason- they accepted that fate, especially as we see that some can simply refuse it. Especially as we see that some -Do- simply refuse it and cannot be compelled.
I think some explanation would be warranted, yes. I mean Sylvanas was a boss in the Attack on Quel’thalas? She was raised. Her original Dark Rangers were all soldiers during the attack on Quel’thalas, they were all raised. What makes you think that Delaryn Summermoon and the others are so very different? I think you probably do need to explain what you mean, yes.
And yet Night Elves, High Elves and Blood Elves can all become Banshee’s upon death, which is the prerequisite for becoming a Dark Ranger.
There are differences, sure, but the major defining factor remains exactly the same.
-Read- Dracula. There are a wealth of reasons why a person who has spent their life in service to a faith or people, only to be (perceivedly) let down by them and turn against them after what is, let us face it, a traumatic experience none of us will ever experience so have no frame of reference. If we’re being honest, we don’t -know- the reasons, so people are just saying it makes no sense. There could be perfectly valid reasons, but until Blizzard publish the backstory of every Dark Ranger we’re not going to know those.
Can’t you? I can. It probably says something horrible about me, but I can. I’m angry at the supposedly ‘Loving God’ that killed my father despite him leading a blameless and innocent life, I’m angry at the ‘Loving God’ that has crippled me for no reason, I’m angry at the 52% of my people who have plunged my country into uncertainty and chaos, I’m angry at the fact that villains get away scot-free, but the innocent die young! If I could put these things right, even from beyond the grave, then by the Gods I would. Oh I would. And it would be nasty, and bloody. That may say something bad about me, but that’s just one person’s motivation Who is to say that Night Elves are above such impulses?
I just did. Or is your claim that none of those risen felt residual anger? I mean we see that some just flat out refuse…
Ultimately it would be fairly meaningless. It doesn’t matter what is said, you have your opinion, which you will stick to, I have mine, which is backed by the lore. This is however another Night Elf Thread, so you will probably get some backing for your incorrect postulations.
One day we will be able to discuss Night Elves without the victim complex coming out, Today however…is not that day.
I haven’t said anything about Night Elves. That was someone else I presume. I have debated your ridiculous views on interracial relationships and the value of Tolkien.
If you’re going to make smug side-remarks in order to have the last words, at least try to address the right person. We can expect as much, even from a larping boomer.
I am presuming that was an exercise in calculated irony, making a comment about smug side-remarks in order to get the last word, before promptly making a smug side remark as -literally- the last words? If so, well played.
Sadly, you got the generations wrong, ‘Boomers’ were my parent’s generation, insomuch as it matters I would classify as ‘Generation X’ instead.
It is always people who have 0 lore information posting nonsense like that.
Tyrande did not turn into a Mary Sue, she can destroy armies pre ascension, read WOTA,Stormrage,Wolfheart,seeds of faith and play WC3.
Malfurion has been established as the most powerful mortal in Azeroth a long time ago. You sound like a complete ignorant, Night Elves are taller than orcs, they are equally savage ( ASK Grommash Hellscream) Malfurion is referenced in lore to be larger than average Night elves even as an adolescent he was the very tall.
There is a reason Malfurion and Tyrande were non existent in lore until Cata, in an old Blizzcon Metzen explained that they both shine vs existential threats not small battles…please learn about lore before posting next time.
Night Elves should always beat Orcs when it comes to forest fighting.
Lore has always made it look the opposite. It’s only taken Blizzard 14 years to remember that Night Elves fight best, under the cover of moonlight and under their foliage.
The only Night Elves who might not benefit from Forest fighting are the Highborne.
I don’t think you could classify Tyrande as a ‘Mary Sue’ anyway, she is an incredibly ancient being, who has existed for literally longer than our own recorded histories in the real world. She did not do this by virtue of being a ‘special’ case, but because her race simply does live that long (Or did, she now has the same life expectancy as all Elves). It follows therefore, that she would be incredibly powerful in those fields that she had studied, principally those of a Sentinel and a Priestess.
We know that Elune exists as (possibly) the only Deity as we would class it, (I would argue that the Loa are more like, well, how Loa are actually viewed in the real world’s religion of Voodoo, channels to a Demiurge, not the Demiurge itself) that is not an Old God. We know that Tyrande has a special connection to Elune.
I wouldn’t go as far as to say that she can ‘destroy armies’, even in those examples she is an incredibly potent adversary, not singlehandedly able to oppose thousands, she is after all, (now) mortal. Her situation has changed. I see the Night Warrior thing as a shift in her focus, rather than an ascension (though that is just my own opinion), granting her different powers, not necessarily -increasing- her powers. I suppose a similar parallel would be Sylvanas and Dark Rangers, they -had- Farstrider powers, but with Undeath they lost those but had them replaced with new abilities.
You might be letting personal bias cloud your judgment there… Malfurion is undoubtedly the most powerful Druid on Azeroth, he would indeed be classed by our standards as almost a Demi-God, I am not sure he could be classed as ‘The most powerful mortal on Azeroth’ however, I think he probably shares that title, with Thrall/Go’el, and potentially these days with Wrathion and Alexstrasza. Is Aszhara mortal? if so, then definitely with her also. Don’t be fooled with the ‘Doomhammer and the elements no longer respond to me’ schtick, as by that definition the most powerful person in Azeroth is you, me, and every other player.
Malfurion is the most powerful -Druid- on Azeroth, and that is a considerable thing.
I did not know he was of unusual stature, that’s an interesting thing to know. I mean I always assumed he was, but thought it was due to the physical changes he had underwent as he became more ‘animalistic’. I knew that both he and Illidan were viewed as ‘special’, but not that he was physically very tall, interesting snippet of lore that, Cheers!
Undoubtedly. You go up against Night Elves or for that matter High/Blood Elves in a forest, without overwhelming numerical superiority, then you are going to lose. It is pretty much exactly a Vietnam War situation, a canny guerilla army that knows its own land is going to hand you your backside if you just try to match them man for man, you need to massively outnumber them to win a war. Sadly for the Night Elves, that’s what the Horde did in the War of Thorns.
I’d argue with that. The Highborne may have followed a different route, but they are the same stock, and they are after all the progenitors of the HIgh/Blood Elves, and therefore the Farstriders, who are with the Sentinels pretty much the daddies and mommies of forest/jungle warfare. I mean the Farstriders are described as being more capable than the Amani in forest warfare than even the Amani. That’s some serious skills. I mean that’s the Amani’s home turf. They are literally described as better at Guerilla warfare, than the people performing Guerilla warfare in their own land!
I don’t reckon the Highborne were slouches…some might have been, but as a culture, I don’t see it, and lore kind of says “Nah, they’re still pretty damned good at this”
But as far as the common lore tells us, the actual Highborne themselves (those of House Shen’dralar), care nothing for trees. It fits their outlook on life well, which sparks interest within the Kaldorei society.
The High Elves and Blood Elves adapted well to their eventual land, but their Highborne ancestors of Feralas were constantly in one small area of their shattered capital. The Elves of Quel’Thalas grew to adapt because they had to and they were encouraged to. The Shen’dralar never had that, as they spent far too long in their library and year by year, becoming lethargic.
The Highborne of the Alliance may be well versed in some areas of combat, but they are involved with a faction, where Humans, Draenei and Void Elves have surpassed them.
Their lowborne kin have been fighting in forests for 10,000 years, whilst they sat in their libraries of Southern Kalimdor and did very little. Never bettering themselves, unlike the Highborne of Quel’Thalas, who had to develop because their situation demanded they better themselves.
The Highborne of Suramar are different as they held leyline expertise knowledge as well as great knowledge on powerful artifacts. They also were great telemancers.
The Highborne of Dire Maul, as far as I’m concerned, only have 1 good feat of strength and that is they never shown any visible signs of demonic corruption, unlike the Blood Elves and Orcs.
I suppose it depends on whether you regard ‘nature over nurture’ as a defining trait of a people, and to be fair, we haven’t really settled that issue in our own world. I 100% agree that the mainstream branch of Kaldorei culture is more in tune with nature, and probably more skilled, I don’t think however, that a cultural affinity would be so easily shed. I mean we don’t really know, we’re talking about creatures that are millennia old, and we quite simply do not have the mental tools to understand how such a society or race would think. I agree that their priorities shifted, but we just don’t know how they think, which is a problem when trying to RP one, we simply don’t know. I can play my 44 year old female Footman character, because she’s human, she’s the same age as me, even if I have never been female, I have enough female friends of a similar age that I can kind of get the hang of it, I don’t have any friends who are 10,000 years old magicians. (Not that I know, unless they are really good at keeping a secret!)
We don’t really -know- what focus the Highborne put on nature, how important it was to them.
I broadly agree with what you are saying, but I don’t think we can just rule them out as not having these skills.