How to fix Korrak's Revenge?

That I also agree with, but it comes down to the defeatist attitude.
Because people have the preconception of “this is loss” even before the gates open and the duck parade marches behind Vann as soon as they can, there really is no point in trying.

The 2 real points of imbalance are/were the mercenary mode only being for horde and the horde lieutenants having more HP than the alliance one, one of them having no tangible bearing on the actual w/l ratio and one of them got hotfixed.

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This made me nostalgic and to think our old strategies when i played. I remember being in some of those really long matches but i really started doing lot of AV after small changes that made it bit faster (i think 1.10ish something?). It was still just with own server folks. That time we always went snowfall-galvangar- ib tower - towerpoint- fw gy - fw keep towers -drekk. Then there was something else changed and we changed our strategy to run straight to drekk, pull out marshalls one at the time and kill and then kill drekk. I remember numerous times jumping on that hill front of drekks place waiting for next pull. Then they changed something again and we started to do the earlier snowfall- galvangar (and so on) route. But we did win most of the time (as alliance), it was very rare to lose back then. Dragonblight server and later Blackout battlegroup. Oh those were good times. :smiley:

I think it’s fair – at least from my own point of view – to point out imbalances within the map itself before blaming fellow players for every defeat.
I think the Alliance in general is allowed to say that it owes some of its defeats to factors beyond its own control.
And I think it’s fair to be upset about that.

I also think it’s fair to use Korrak’s Revenge as a smoking gun, to voice concern and criticism about general faction imbalance to Blizzard.
And I think it’s fair to be upset about Blizzard’s inaction or inability to alleviate this long-standing concern and criticism.

And I think it’s fair to be critical of one self and reflect upon ways you can improve so you may perhaps turn defeat to victory.
But I also think one should be realistic. And it’s one thing to change your own strategy and approach, it’s another thing entirely to change the strategy and approach of the total Alliance faction – plus however many random Horde players that use the Mercenary system. Of any community in WoW, the one that faces the hardest uphill battle in terms of going zero to hero, that is definitely the Alliance of today. Any task it has to accomplish inevitably has to surpass the efforts of the Horde, which is at its strongest ever in the history of WoW.
That is easier said than done.

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I like your responses. Something I want to mention map (design wise) in what I feel about the map (map URL): https://wow.gamepressure.com/map.asp?ID=67

  • The Horde can get to the center quickly. Their route, it is direct to the alliance bunkers, the alliance bunkers - they provide a lot of space to DPS in. Where as the Horde tower huts provide little space. So it is easy to knock/fear people off and ruin attacks on them.
  • Winterax Hold, Snowfall GY, Iceblood garrison. Horde areas which serve no purpose and for all intensive purposes do not need to exist in what is a rush north/south along the right side.
  • Iceblood GY has 3 to 4 wandering Horde generals around it and a bunch of elites. The horde don’t have to deal with an equivalent of that when going to Stoneheath GY.
  • Even an in ideal speed run by the alliance - doing the relief hut GY skip is required to even keep up pace wise with the Horde. I’ve observed it coming down to seconds, with the skip - in perfect alliance teams which pushed south hard and on point.
  • Many AFK bots which auto run to the mine on alliance side at the start of the match.
  • AFKers on top of dun balder building (one boss is in) does not register as in AV so people afk cheat on top or inside of it and make it tougher to report them than it should be. This and general mine afk bots undermine the alliance side further.
  • The “bridge” into the last alliance area is meaningless in modern WoW with demon hunters and warlock portals etc. In old WoW it was a hard lock hurdle, but in modern WoW it is nothing and super easy to bypass/get over.
  • If you die inside Dun Balder (final alliance boss building), even if you don’t have the GY outside of it you can still rez directly in there. Making it even easier to down the boss more quickly.

There’s a lot wrong with the map in my opinion design wise.

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This i agree. Horde is usually capping SH bunker when alliance is riding past on their way to IB.

This i disagree. I think horde towers are easier to take because walls of flagrooms and easy to knock off people is excellent when you are defending cap waiting it to burn.

Both GYs have those wandering generals and elites. You get very accustomed with them as healer on both sides, because your teammaters don’t look at all what they pull with them and then when you heal someone those npcs kill you. Both sides. And when going as solo roamer i find it much more difficult to run past npcs around Stoneheart gy than IB area, even IB area is more narrow.

This is sometimes problem.

This is big problem at the moment.

It can be great defence place and provide super fun play, but i agree it is much easier to go over than to go trough the curves leading to fw keep.

This you can do only once (and it works on alliance too). After that timer kicks in and ressing and running back is actually slower than with normal gy run. But it’s a bug indeed that should be fixed.

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I don’t disagree with the notion of general faction imbalance.
I’m not arguing that alliance doesn’t have less players willing to play “properly” because they OBVIOUSLY do, but that’s not really the fault of the map, which is what I’m trynna say.

I don’t think changing Korrak is going to fix anything, and I don’t think it should be changed just because Alliance has a handicap due to it’s playerbase (or the lack of it, whichever you prefer).

I do think Blizzard should do something about the general imbalance, I just don’t know what. I don’t think shifting racial balance grossly in favor of alliance is a desirable response, though it might be the most effective, and maybe the only one at this point, because of the snowball effect that the whole thing has attached to it.

edit: ugly sentence is now nicer

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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.engadget.com/amp/2007/06/12/why-does-the-horde-always-lose-alterac-valley/

Ironic isn’t it

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This mindset didn’t come out of nowhere and wasn’t developed for no reason, it did come as a result of the Blizzard mismanagement of the game and the ignorance of the glaring issue which did developed because of it in regards to the balance between the factions just as Danellos has pointed out recently in this thread, where even you did agree about the things stated in it :

It would be nice if the alliance as a faction would be in some aspects in the game currently better than the horde or if the things would be more equal but the statistic is showing totally different things, how in every single area when it comes to the endgame now horde reigns supreme which is a good indicator about the current state of the both factions which is affecting all of us in the game.

When it comes to the current leadership in the rated battlegrounds horde is on 61.6 % and the alliance on 38.4% in the EU, and data shows how even more of horde players participate in them than the alliance. Horde is also leading in both 2vs2 and 3vs3 arena, the difference in the PvP is even bigger if we look on the US.

https://www.pvpleaderboard.com/statistics/rbg/eu#faction

For the m+ I’m aware how the night elf shadowmeld racial is one of the better ones in the game but that racial obviously didn’t entice the players which do m+ content progressively in the game to play more on the alliance side.

This are proofs how the things did look like on that aspect just a year ago from now :

On the competitive WoW reddit there is an entire thread about this :
" 70% of the top 20,000 M+ runs are Horde. According to the top 1000 pages of M+ runs on raiderio, there are 13,928 Horde groups and 6072 Alliance groups. The overall percent gets more slanted as you cut to e.g. the top 100 or top 10 pages.This isn’t quite as skewed as mythic raid completion, but it’s pretty close. "

https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveWoW/comments/9q1l7u/70_of_the_top_20000_m_runs_are_horde/?st=k3npcks0&sh=1854cea8

And if you check the current leaderboards on Raiderio site you can only notice how the things didn’t changed much since than, you will just see several front pages of it filled with majority of the horde teams with only some alliance ones as an exception :

https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-bfa-3/all/world/leaderboards

Than if you look on the raiding you will notice how the WoW progress is showing currently that : in the EU from the top 100 guilds only 18 are alliance, in the US from top 100 only 27 and worldwide from top 100 only 13 are alliance.

Here is some more data regarding that :
" Uldir, the opening raid of Battle for Azeroth . The Horde Hall of Fame closed on October 14. At that point, 12 Alliance guilds had cleared Mythic and earned Hall of Fame honors. The Alliance Hall of Fame closed on November 5, three weeks later.

The following raid was Battle for Dazar’alor. This raid further tried to neutralize any imbalance from Horde Racials by race changing the players for three bosses in the raid. The Horde Hall of Fame closed on March 10. At that point, there were 15 Alliance guilds in the Hall of Fame. On April 7, the Alliance Hall of Fame filled. We were back to a four week difference.

In the mini raid of Crucible of Storms, the Horde Hall of Fame closed on June 15. The Alliance had 12 guilds with clears at that point. The Alliance did not fill its Hall of Fame, with only 42 guilds clearing Crucible before patch 8.2 released on June 25. If we assume the standard three to four weeks, Alliance would have completed around July 12, if it had remained available.

The latest raid was Eternal Palace. Horde finished the Hall of Fame on September 5. Alliance would complete it on October 10. We’re now looking at six weeks, two weeks longer than Battle for Dazar’alor. "

https://blizzardwatch.com/2019/11/18/post-mortem-wows-raiding-hall-fame-need-cross-faction-pve/

This article from July 2019 is also an solid proof about how this matter is much more significant than you actually think it is, and this is stated in it :

" While Horde and Alliance populations are roughly equal overall in World of Warcraft, the percentage of the players taking advantage of end-game content ( raids, PvP battelgrounds, open world PvP content, high-end Mythic Plus dungeon runs ) is overwhelmingly imbalanced. Horde outnumber Alliance on the leaderboards for Mythic raids and dungeons more than 6:1, a problem than only worsens as players swaps factions after having difficulty finding guilds and groups.

Rise of the Azhara included some truly fun open world PvP encounters, which form the core of the new PvP currency systems. The battle for Nazjatar was supposed to pit Alliance and Horde players against each other for control of the zone and currency rewards, for example. Instead, the imbalance was so extreme that either Horde won the battle over and over again as raids formed in zones to capture those objectives, pulling people in from multiple shards; or faced no competition at all, because there were so many of them that they ended up in shards of their own, with not a single player of the Alliance on sight.

Eventually, the event was changed so that it wouldn’t even spawn if the shard was imbalanced, instead presenting a much less-rewarding PvE option. The Mechagon Fight Club was similarly removed from an achievement altogether.

Overwhelming high-end faction imbalance makes Rise of Azshara less fun for both factions in PvP, and for Alliance players who struggle to find groups in high-end PvE dungeons and raids. "

https://venturebeat.com/2019/07/24/world-of-warcraft-rise-of-azshara-review-showers-players-with-fun-after-a-long-dry-spell/

Lastly I think how its not hard to understand why some of the people which are for removing of the mercenary mode for PvP in the current situation where Blizzard stated how its not currently in the plan the introduction of the PvE cross-faction option are the same ones which are for introduction of the PvE cross-faction options if we take in the account everything which I stated above.

The people want to see either the factions getting better balanced in the game or if the Blizzard is unable to do that than from it to make some more radical solutions to the problems which would lead that the players don’t suffer anymore and don’t feel punished when it comes to that what they can do in the game and what kind of progress they can achieve at the endgame just because of their choice of the race they want to main or because of some factional story choices.

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you pretty much own the topic now.
posting saved for the future. grandious work, Liära.

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Wasted on me sorry im not reading all that when it has nothing to do with KR or my views on faction imbalance which is in my mind totally different format from horde bias.
Anyone can see the factions are not right and need work ive never said any difference so please dont say i have .
Also please be more mindful of whom you contact outside of game and hassle them over views thank you any posts or friends request from you now on will be ignored.

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Looking all the posts on this thread i suggest following changes to KR:

  • Going on top of the Vandar’s bunker now makes your character fall trough the map endlessly untill next server maintenance with no way to get out.
  • Now following things make you disconnect from the game with deserter debuff: typing on chat “let them win”, “sucks”, “we will lose” and any variations of those. Going to snowfall GY. Taking a flag and not defending it resulting enemy capping the objective back (4 minute timer). Staying in mines more than 5 minutes at the time.
  • If you haven’t done any damage, healing, capping (vicinity is enough) or defending whole match, you cannot queue back to match untill 2 hour superdeserter debuff has wore off. If you do it as mercenary (either side), your debuff is double.

On top of that i suggest, just cause i think it would be fun and cause i am greedy:

  • Make DB bridge really slippery. Like super slippery!
  • Put all bunkers underground and make all towers fully walled from outside and have, as only way to get in or our, Undercity styled elevator. Make it impossible to see who is inside/outside untill you step out from the elevator.
  • Bring back snowballs that have old push back effect for Winter Veil.
  • Add summonable Snow Cone truck for both factions.
  • Add to middle field random tornadoes that whisk players unexpectedly to all directions.
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You are so evil lol.

They need to be yellow ones though.

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Should add: add the correct emote to make the snowballs yellow.

Oh and evil people don’t ask Snow Cone trucks! “Need 8 more to summon snow cone truck!”

Run out of likes :heart: instead and :wine_glass:

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Oh it has to do a lot with how the factions do in the KR to. KR is just a a drop in the entire ocean of the entire faction imbalance we have in the game now. Its no wonder that the horde wins more in battlegrounds when that faction has a lot more competitive endgame players which are geared and which have a good knowledge how to do things in both PvP and PvE.

And another thing you should be mindful about what you are talking about and keep to the subject, mind your own business in the game or outside of it and don’t pull your nose in the things which don’t have anything to do with you, you are not in the any position to tell anyone what they should do in the game or outside of it. Anyway I’m not the person which likes to hassle anyone just like I don’t like to be hassled myself.

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So you didnt send me a friends request then ingame or hassle one of my close friends outside of offical game channels just because of there views. Sorry dont tell me to be mindful when its blatant harrassment.

This is just an accusation without evidence, a troll attempt. I don’t remember that I harassed anyone outside of the game, if I wanted to talk with someone about something regarding the game and the views about it than that’s my own business and of the people I spoke to and not yours.

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It is my business when its my close friend and dont ever try to add me to battletag again ive no idea how you even got it.

Like I need a troll in my life. I don’t.

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Then why did you try to add me then ? Or are you going to deny it . You are the reason i left SoD discord.
Anyway stick to topic thank you and dont reply to me again thank you.
A troll right because i dont share your views ? A troll cause i defend my friends for being pmed outside of the game ok gotcha