Hello fellow Players!
Intro:
There is a number of issues with the current state of the game, a lot of them have been stated by streamers, youtubers(asmongold, preach, bellular,az), players and adressed by Blizzard aswell.
I have recently whitnessed alot of those being adressed by other players as how to fix/improove them, but I am yet to find someone, who has had a specific idea on how to fix what i am about to adress.
Main part:
A lot of the frustration in the playerbase comes from other players, it seems. It may have a variety of different reasons, but there is one in particular I think is a big one: the gearing process. (free loot and titanforging and on the other hand underwhelming rewards after getting those titanforges)
We all know how it goes down in the current system as soon as you hit max lvl and it is neither particularly interesting, nor is it making the player feeling good about gearing up this way in the long run!
Another sideeffect this process is causing: people gear up for doing litterally nothing but spend time in the game (warfronts, weekly quest rewards, world bosses, titanfroging etc...), which leaves them with a reward yet not the skill necessary to aquire that reward under normal circumstances (for that 340/355/370 ilvl gear youd have to go mythic0, n/hc uldir, or 6+ keys)
Which leads to a lot of frustration to the entire playerbase, not only the ones who were prepairing themselves (watching guides, practice rotations, get the right enchants/consumables etc...), but also for the ones who dont know who to play at the level their "free" gear is telling them to be.
It is absolutely a joke to get to 350 you can do that in max 1 week, faster if you get some dropluck. So the next step for an upgrade is either raid or a +6 key.
Now imagine a player never having to interrupt/stun/kite/cc/soothe getting into a +6 key.
Then if this player finally manages to get to that level where he beats the +6 key and pushes his limits further, he gets awarded with a 355ilvl piece of loot, but wait he got a free 370 ilvl piece from that warfront he queued last night at 3am and fell asleep but he still got it done, because it didnt matter he wasnt participating... This feels terrible if you get a reward for actually playing the game, that is far worse from the one you got for doing nothing.
The point is not bad game design, Blizzard is giving everyone the tools and also the necessary process to learn how to use the tools(the dungeon design is great, mechanics are easy to learn and there is all insentive to learn them aswell, but alongside they also provide the player with a cheatcode (just simply outgearing mechanics in content you can queue up to), where all this begins to be a problem.
Well as a mythic raider having outgeared heroic uldir and +10 keystone locked gear aswell, there is not much i can do to get my character further ahead but to raid mythic. Tecnically I could run content I already outgeared because of the chance on a titanforge, but that is just not fun at all. So what am I going to do when I log in?
So there we have 2 problems sitting on both ends of the ilvl spectrum and i came up with a solution, maybe this is already in work or someone else has had the same/similar idea, I dont know that.
How to fix the gearing problem:
1) Reward players with loot they deserve, based on the hardest content they have succeeded and not itemlevel of their current gear. Example: I have done only mythic+0 and some lfr so the reward i should get would be around ilvl 345-350 max. So instead of going into a warfront and getting free 370ilvl i would get a 350ilvl piece. This will push players to actually follow the game mechanics, create own groups and get better at the game.
2) Make every Keystone done in time drop loot for each player insted/alongside of azerite power, I know it sounds stupid right now but you will understand why after you red all the points. This will lesser the frustration and will players a good insentive to push keys with a guarantee of loot.
3) Make gear scrappable, but in a meaningful way for character progression:
- Mythic keystone gear could be scrapped for "MYTHIC KEYSTONE DUST" or simply "MKD" the higher key you obtained this item from, the more dust you should get the ammount of dust should rise exponential with the keystone level NOT ITEMLEVEL.
-Raidgear scrappable for "RAID DUST" or "RD" which followes the same rule, the higher difficulty you got it from, the more dust
-Example:
keystone level 2 scrapped gives 25 "MKD" and keystone 10 gives you 300 "MKD"
LFR item scrapped 40 "RD" and mythic difficulty item scrapped 500 "RD"
4) So now you got the dust you could be able to use a stack of 1000 dust to upgrade an time +5 itemlevel with the following rule:
-"MKD" only works on items from keystone gear and WQ`s gear
-"RD" only works on raidgear
-the itemlevel upgrades should have a cap ofc but not a "use" cap like we used to have with the badges, instead the cap should be an ilvl-cap
-you cant use the dust from keystones on your raidgear and vice versa, raidgear should be something special since there is a limit on how much of it you are able to get a chance on aquiring per week.
-Example:
keystone gear could be upgraded up to an ilvl of 385
raid gear (independant of aquired difficulty, except lfr) up to ilvl 395
Up to here you would get a solution for keeping players engaged yet not letting them play a constant slotmachine, but a in small steps and constant feel of progression and rise in power, even helping out friends running lover keys would still progress your character in a meaningfull way.
Additionaly, if you really need to implement RNG and "lucky upgrades" into the game, this system would be perfect for that aswell:
-Example: instead of gear titanforgin you could get additional dust from scrapping on a proc (20% extra or something in this direction)
You could use this system to additionally reward players for raming rep from worldquests after they have reached exalted with a certain fraction, like the exalted satchel in legion.
Same goes for the busy work quests whic reward you 80 gold.....
-Why did i include Worldquest Rewards in being upgradable by keystone dust?
For many classes world quest rewards are very good but you would have to get insanely lucky to get them to an ilvl where it does not feel bad to use them...
-Example: After simming my character a mythic 385ilvl trinket only gains me 10 dps increase compared to a 365 one.... this shouldnt be necessary and i shouldnt loose on 2 over all ilvl just so i can use the "better" trinket, instead i would be able to invest time in upgrading the trinket so it feels rewarding and good that i earned it and i am using it with a benefit
With this system you would give players a constant feel of progression without very high spikes in ilvl increase followed by a period of disappointment and frustration without bringing in new vendors and weekly cappable currencies like the badges in the past.
Ending word:
I am not a developer and I have not the intention to tell anyone how to do things.
I love this game and I love the players and I want this game to be so good, people would quit their jobs to play it! This is to bring out my idea into the world and if I manage to inspire even the slighest change in the better future of this game, I'll thake the time to do so.
Thank you for reading, never stop going big dig and dont forget #TWITCHPRIME
I see what you are saying When my 1st epic dropped i near had a heart attack, yes that feeling is long gone. now i delete them every day. I havent a clue why they made epics so common. I have seen threads in which people who are saying they are capable and cant get into groups for higher keys and mythics. Plus a lot of people are scared to use their higher keys in a pug because of messers.
I think blizz maybe trying to make everyone feel worthy, even players like myself who simply do not have the attention span or dedication to get BIS in every slot. So they have to give us something. I know if i went too try and get into a pug raid now there is not a chance at all. Or for a +7 which i wouldnt try anyway because im scared of potential toxicity that may arise if a player farts at the wrong time.
I fully understand that players who put in the time are disappointed at the fact that the casuals can near catch up by getting lucky with titanforge.
Maybe they should give players who have done really scary stuff that most just can a reward such as items with bonus sets that can only be obtained if you have jumped over and cleared a very high bar. Mountss dont really do it. I can't really see how you feel unisentified here now
I think blizz maybe trying to make everyone feel worthy, even players like myself who simply do not have the attention span or dedication to get BIS in every slot. So they have to give us something. I know if i went too try and get into a pug raid now there is not a chance at all. Or for a +7 which i wouldnt try anyway because im scared of potential toxicity that may arise if a player farts at the wrong time.
I fully understand that players who put in the time are disappointed at the fact that the casuals can near catch up by getting lucky with titanforge.
Maybe they should give players who have done really scary stuff that most just can a reward such as items with bonus sets that can only be obtained if you have jumped over and cleared a very high bar. Mountss dont really do it. I can't really see how you feel unisentified here now
you know a very long time ago , i made a post saying mythic raiders one day will hit that wall and come here saying "what will i do when i log in now i got the gear?"
that's the problem when they release a expansion with no real content to do outside of progression.
streamers all copy eachothers view to get viewers .. they arent speaking their personal opinions of the game or some of them would of quit a long while ago , yet every one of them are still here doing the weekly farms with a smile on their face.
i made my decision i dont like bfa .. but i also fell out of love with wow back in legion. i came back in bfa to give it a chance a last horaah but it didn't pay off.
gear is what it is right now ... it iwll improve with 8.1 because of the currencies .. and it will give everyone something to farm ... but until they remove things like raider io .. casual players will still have a hard time farming those currancies ... so they most likely wont come back to the game for very long.
the gearing is in poor condition but the community is in a worse condition and they refuse to accept this instead continue to support system which literally stop people being able to progress in the game.
they need to take a moment to think about the lil man and stop thinking about the mythic man, before it's too late .. they spent so much time fixing azerite for the mythic man now that most of the lil men have left the game.
they need to wake up and realise this.
that's the problem when they release a expansion with no real content to do outside of progression.
streamers all copy eachothers view to get viewers .. they arent speaking their personal opinions of the game or some of them would of quit a long while ago , yet every one of them are still here doing the weekly farms with a smile on their face.
i made my decision i dont like bfa .. but i also fell out of love with wow back in legion. i came back in bfa to give it a chance a last horaah but it didn't pay off.
gear is what it is right now ... it iwll improve with 8.1 because of the currencies .. and it will give everyone something to farm ... but until they remove things like raider io .. casual players will still have a hard time farming those currancies ... so they most likely wont come back to the game for very long.
the gearing is in poor condition but the community is in a worse condition and they refuse to accept this instead continue to support system which literally stop people being able to progress in the game.
they need to take a moment to think about the lil man and stop thinking about the mythic man, before it's too late .. they spent so much time fixing azerite for the mythic man now that most of the lil men have left the game.
they need to wake up and realise this.
02/11/2018 02:05Posted by Pixelbear
gear is what it is right now ... it iwll improve with 8.1 because of the currencies .. and it will give everyone something to farm ... but until they remove things like raider io .. casual players will still have a hard time farming those currancies
You can't simply remove raider.io though. Remove it and something else will come up 2 days later. The problem is that the game heavily encourages system like raider.io, the developers know that very well and it's their choice to keep it and encourage it.
What the OP is explaining would be better than what we have right now, but it's not that far from valor points we already had, if you think about it, even if it's slighty different.
The problem is that the same people complaining about raider.io are the same people that advocate for +40 ilvl titanforgeds, while not wanting to accept the fact that we got raider.io exactly because of TFs. Nobody cares about ilvl and epic quaility loot, if everyone can obtain it.
If you want to remove raider.io, you gotta remove TFs, and people should go back to obtain the gear/currencies appropriate to the content they clear. You should remove the weekly M+ chest too, since it gives an ilvl item too high for everyone.
For example, I got: 1x 385 head 1x legs 395 1x380 weapon 1x385 belt 1x 385 shoulders.
I NEVER cleared a Mythic raid boss. And all those pieces I got are comparable to mythic raiding pieces, some even better.
02/11/2018 02:05Posted by Pixelbearthat's the problem when they release a expansion with no real content to do outside of progression.
for me honestly there never was anything else, even if the world had something to offer
02/11/2018 02:05Posted by Pixelbearstreamers all copy eachothers view to get viewers .. they arent speaking their personal opinions of the game or some of them would of quit a long while ago , yet every one of them are still here doing the weekly farms with a smile on their face.
i do not agree with this, for the reason of people made memories with this game and with other people in the game, thus they wont quit. its human nature for some of us.
02/11/2018 02:05Posted by Pixelbearthe gearing is in poor condition but the community is in a worse condition and they refuse to accept this instead continue to support system which literally stop people being able to progress in the game.
yes i agree, but this comes back to the individual laziness of everone complaining about this and here is why:
- you dont like being excluded cause of raider io score being too low? how about you open your own run and then you decide which people you take with you, and i guarantee your opinion of this will change.
-yes this is not a perfect system and i vastly outgear +10 dungeons yet i still am not taken cause of the score and guess what? though luck
- even if you can do something in the real world nobody, who needs your skill, will employ you unless you have prooven to be as skilled as you claim.
02/11/2018 02:05Posted by Pixelbearthe gearing is in poor condition but the community is in a worse condition and they refuse to accept this instead continue to support system which literally stop people being able to progress in the game.
yes I absolutely agree on that one, this is why i made this post in the first place. complaining is good to point out waht is wrong, trying to give constructive feedback and genuine suggestions is what shows you have the intent to fix it
02/11/2018 02:05Posted by Pixelbearthey need to take a moment to think about the lil man and stop thinking about the mythic man, before it's too late .. they spent so much time fixing azerite for the mythic man now that most of the lil men have left the game.
that maybe true, but I adressed this issue in my post, on how i think to fix it and give everyone the same sense of progression, no matter what point of gearing up progress you are at.
I feel you have a strong feeling about the game and you are sorry to letting go. I am too.
02/11/2018 02:16Posted by Tokiri02/11/2018 02:05Posted by Pixelbear
gear is what it is right now ... it iwll improve with 8.1 because of the currencies .. and it will give everyone something to farm ... but until they remove things like raider io .. casual players will still have a hard time farming those currancies
You can't simply remove raider.io though. Remove it and something else will come up 2 days later. The problem is that the game heavily encourages system like raider.io, the developers know that very well and it's their choice to keep it and encourage it.
What the OP is explaining would be better than what we have right now, but it's not that far from valor points we already had, if you think about it, even if it's slighty different.
The problem is that the same people complaining about raider.io are the same people that advocate for +40 ilvl titanforgeds, while not wanting to accept the fact that we got raider.io exactly because of TFs. Nobody cares about ilvl and epic quaility loot, if everyone can obtain it.
If you want to remove raider.io, you gotta remove TFs, and people should go back to obtain the gear/currencies appropriate to the content they clear.
you are correct and personally i don't care anymore about it im not coming back to wow unless classic is good ... maybe will try classic but i highly doubt i will honestly ... its a sad time when you realise the game you spent so many years playing have gone the worse possible direction it could go in terms of community.
i don't blame people for doing it either , blizzard basically encouraged this themselves. by trying to make the game more esport friendly.
wow is dead for casual players and i don't think it will ever be the same again :).
hope you all continue to enjoy it though.
02/11/2018 02:16Posted by Tokiribut it's not that far from valor points we already had, if you think about it, even if it's slighty different.
I would say it is a very different approach to a similar, but in my opinion, far better solution in the long run.
just want to add i like your idea of dust btw..
i just think the problem with bfa isn't the gearing .. its the lack of focus on anything outside of gear.
i just think the problem with bfa isn't the gearing .. its the lack of focus on anything outside of gear.
[quote="176233274542"]i just think the problem with bfa isn't the gearing .. its the lack of focus on anything outside of gear.
This is just one of the numerous issues the game has right now, i undestand that! and I iwll make another post addressing everything i think the game lacks right now post by post, issue by issue with my personal improovement suggestions
This is just one of the numerous issues the game has right now, i undestand that! and I iwll make another post addressing everything i think the game lacks right now post by post, issue by issue with my personal improovement suggestions
/push
Classic will fix this.
And tbh im looking forward to actually get that good feeling when you finally aquire the gear you want, wether its from dungeon, raid, quest or random drop.
I remember farming mats for robe of the archmage. The time spent getting essence og air/fire/ etc, and finally being able to craft and wear it...
Wow....it made me feel u could 1shot anything.
And tbh im looking forward to actually get that good feeling when you finally aquire the gear you want, wether its from dungeon, raid, quest or random drop.
I remember farming mats for robe of the archmage. The time spent getting essence og air/fire/ etc, and finally being able to craft and wear it...
Wow....it made me feel u could 1shot anything.
02/11/2018 01:47Posted by Primeapex
1) Reward players with loot they deserve, based on the hardest content they have succeeded and not itemlevel of their current gear. Example: I have done only mythic+0 and some lfr so the reward i should get would be around ilvl 345-350 max. So instead of going into a warfront and getting free 370ilvl i would get a 350ilvl piece. This will push players to actually follow the game mechanics, create own groups and get better at the game.
See, this is a mistake here in my opinion. This change would not lead to more people to play harder content at all, it might actually have the opposite effect if people with lower gear don't feel confident enough to go into a raid or mythic dungeon. Many people overgear content on purpose.
I also have to ask why it is even important to "push" people into higher difficulty content. What part of the game experience would this improve? Everything from mythic 0 on or higher than normal raids is basically irrelevant. That content might as well not exist and the game wouldn't change much at all. It's niche content for a small group of players and there is no reason at all to "push" more people into it. You talk a lot about "deserving", being frustrated about other people's gear level and other highly subjective emotional things that might make lots of sense from your perspective but I don't think should be used as a basis for making such far reaching changes to the game.
just bring back Gearscore.
06/11/2018 10:24Posted by ThysilisSee, this is a mistake here in my opinion. This change would not lead to more people to play harder content at all, it might actually have the opposite effect if people with lower gear don't feel confident enough to go into a raid or mythic dungeon. Many people overgear content on purpose.
I also have to ask why it is even important to "push" people into higher difficulty content. What part of the game experience would this improve? Everything from mythic 0 on or higher than normal raids is basically irrelevant. That content might as well not exist and the game wouldn't change much at all. It's niche content for a small group of players and there is no reason at all to "push" more people into it. You talk a lot about "deserving", being frustrated about other people's gear level and other highly subjective emotional things that might make lots of sense from your perspective but I don't think should be used as a basis for making such far reaching changes to the game.
>As I said I dont really care about people getting gear whatsoever, but did you read the whole post tho? I guess not, cause then you would not make this post yourself....
"There are a number of issues.." Understatement of the year!
"Issue" == "features"
"Issue" == "features"
06/11/2018 10:00Posted by Primeapex/push
Bumping is agaisnt the rules
If you want your topic noticed post a link on twitter thats all you can do but see'ing as you only got 3 upvotes you can tell not many on the forums likes your idea .
I know only a very small % read here but there fed up with randoms and there "i can fix this"
06/11/2018 19:31Posted by PrimeapexAs I said I dont really care about people getting gear whatsoever, but did you read the whole post tho? I guess not, cause then you would not make this post yourself....
Sounds like you do, and I read your entire post. I'm not impressed. I agree with Thysilis. Your are describing your own feelings about the system. It doesn't make your opinion bad, it just makes it nothing more than your opinion. I don't share your view at all, but I might have, many years ago.
02/11/2018 01:47Posted by PrimeapexAnother sideeffect this process is causing: people gear up for doing litterally nothing but spend time in the game (warfronts, weekly quest rewards, world bosses, titanfroging etc...), which leaves them with a reward yet not the skill necessary to aquire that reward under normal circumstances (for that 340/355/370 ilvl gear youd have to go mythic0, n/hc uldir, or 6+ keys)
Which leads to a lot of frustration to the entire playerbase, not only the ones who were prepairing themselves (watching guides, practice rotations, get the right enchants/consumables etc...), but also for the ones who dont know who to play at the level their "free" gear is telling them to be.
It is absolutely a joke to get to 350 you can do that in max 1 week, faster if you get some dropluck. So the next step for an upgrade is either raid or a +6 key.
Now imagine a player never having to interrupt/stun/kite/cc/soothe getting into a +6 key.
I am not going to sit here and explain where i believe you are wrong because I agree with you. It is much easier to run a warfront to get gear ilvl 370 or in my case on my DK trinket ilvl 395.
Although you are right reference earning gear, you should also consider that some people hate raiding/mythic + runs. If you don't give players a chance to level their gear outside of the above mentioned paths then how else one is going to get better gear?
Do you remember days where raiding was the only way to gear up? Do you remember folks that were never given a chance to raid because they would have poor dps or not know the fight? Remember all this is before we even had LFR...
Furthermore, take LFR today, the raid drops ilvl 340. Does it take effort to complete it? Maybe for some but for most NO. I believe in a way that LFR is there to teach us how to defeat bosses and get ready for Normal and others. To get better gear however, you will have to be in a premade group which means skills to a point and ilvl requirements. Today that is gone. ilvl 370 drops from warfront as you have mentioned already but forcing other to do content that is even hard to get to while being in a good guild is not the answer.
The point I want to make is, if Blizz is going to challenge us again they cannot forget about the people that prefer other methods of gearing. I would rather spend a week of farming knowing I will get that weapon or piece of gear than wait gamble with RNG and or once every other week for chance to get what you need.
As you see, my current character is ilvl 352. ilvl strictly farmed from warfront, arathi rares and once in a while (long while) mythic runs. As of right now, I am not forced to do anything I do not want to to get better gear. Yes, I do read or watch youtube to learn how to do mythics but the overall issue is people that are refusing to learn and as a result folks like me get punished due to changes you are talking about.
So if you take away the ability to get gear from warfronts, rares and so on most will just run around with their heads cut off like chickens. If you wish for challenge then do mythic + (your choice) or continue to farm warfronts/rares with us :)
This problem is greatly exaggerated and it's a hot issue on the forums only after some streamer makes a video about it, and just like you, most are just parroting whatever they heard in that video without thinking too much about it.
06/11/2018 20:26Posted by ЛусифэрAlthough you are right reference earning gear, you should also consider that some people hate raiding/mythic + runs. If you don't give players a chance to level their gear outside of the above mentioned paths then how else one is going to get better gear?
If they don't raid or do M+ why do they need better (340+) gear?