I believe that; but… Those are people who belong to the minority as was discussed earlier. The ones who (for a large part) play this game to be challenged and to push themselves.
The vast majority might show up ‘just because phat lootz’?
I believe all of those things definitely contribute to why most people don’t do raids above LFR. I would also add that the ‘barrier’ of either needing a guild or having to look for a group to join is also a large contributor.
I can only speak for myself of course, but if normal raids had a queue like LFR does, I might have tried some. I won’t pretend that it would have turned me into a regular raider; I just don’t enjoy the activity itself enough for that. But… I would’ve at least tried it.
So what would be an accessible, appealing way to educate people then?
Little cinematics as you enter a boss area? That you cannot skip the first time you enter it; afterwards of course you could skip such a thing. Explaining the mechanics of the fight in an appealing, fun way?
I personally think mythic raids could do with a bit of a nerf. We really don’t need to tune stuff for 1% of players. That’s my opinion anyway.
As for the learning curve, that is one of the main bad points of WoW I believe. Probably utopia on my end, but class trainers and Proving Grounds should be utilized to have as much gameplay theory in as interactive way as possible.
So anyone can select particular part of their spec/class gameplay, read through brief explanation, see short in game cutscene and then try it on dummy with feedback from game.
I didn’t mean it as proving. I think it as a safe space to try particular gameplay loop while the game tracks if you understand the point by telling you.
In general, make something to help with breaking hurdles for players who desire so.
That IS proving, honestly - even if it’s in ‘a safe space’.
I don’t want nor need the game to tell me how good or bad I am. I don’t care. I can judge that well enough myself. I don’t use DPS meters, I don’t use boss mods. I work on instinct. I strongly dislike the whole ‘your performance is everything’ type of mentality.
Ah, so not mandatory as it was in MoP?
I think the problem then is: Most people won’t do it. Because the vast majority of players aren’t dedicated to ‘learning and improving’ or ‘overcoming challenges’.
Understood, thats why I think it should be just optional thing for everyone to choose whether they want to use it or not.
Your point is absolutely valid and I can see that as I had period of time when I had it similar, probably.
But the point is - there might be people who want the group or ranked group play. In these cases, performance is extremely held against everyone. If they have no previous experience, it is very hard to grasp all the concepts.
I have seen a lot of people that really struggled and wanted to make it work. I was just thinking it might be helpful.
It is foolish to expect everyone to learn 30 pages of text to play their class up to a certain performance. It is abhorrent that other, more experienced players, bash on newcomers instead of supporting them.
That’s not my point. We’ve been discussing it.
I’d like to see raiding being made more appealing FOR THE MAJORITY of players.
I get it. You want to protect your little corner of WoW.
I’m here to talk about expanding the audience. Not accommodate a small minority. That might sound harsh, but… oh well.
Fair enough.
And I do think that WoW has a problem when it comes to educating its players and letting its players know about new stuff in the actual game itself. Players should not be expected to go to websites or watch videos on youtube in order to play a game.
I was more in the mindset of my prior discussions about ‘how to make raiding more appealing to a broader audience’. That’s why I replied the way I did; I thought you meant it in that context (and in THAT context, I don’t think it would work). As a ‘general’ tool for anyone who wants to get into more performance minded activities, it could be useful, sure.
I agree with you on the videos and guides. While I like them personally, I believe that should be only for in-depth topics and reviews. Basics and specific gameplay should be taught by the game.
As for the widening of raid audiences, I am not really sure how to tackle that. We have 4 difficulties so that everyone has more chance to find the right one. Prob depends on hearing out players who have particular reason they don’t like it and engaging with them to have discussion.
But what I do know, whenever I met someone who dropped out of raidgroup I was in, it was because poor performance. Of course there might be other reasons as well.
Kinda true there is only a few pieces better than m+
depends on the boss and guild
find a guild and if you are in one find a better one.
dont wipe then
Mad that raid isnt working, now all guilds are bad, dont wanna pug = what? you just dont like the raiding or that part of the game, stop copying asmongold hes information is out dated he doesnt even play
Its to complicated and requires to much time and i think they are working on that already making it easier and more simple but i think it still requires to much time and a lot of older raiders (at least from people i know) they stop raiding mainly because of the guild drama etc and they get tired of it, or they simply dont like raiding or lack time for it
And the whole learning spec, gearing, min maxing, finding guild(s) to play with, addons, all the stuff you gotta do takes a lot of time.
Gear is also a problem besides a few trinkets and special items there is no reason to do it, it takes much longer than m+ gearing and the gear is useless next patch anyway
And from what i have seen the preferred method to do this is to make it easier?
Or is the suggestion that we make the easy way to raid the only way to raid. And that this will make more people participate?
That’s one way.
But generally making it more accessible is maybe even more important?
Removing or softening some of the barriers that create doubt/fear/misunderstanding and whatnot (that would be things like ‘needing addons’, ‘being judged harshly by peers’, ‘needing a guild’, ‘scheduling’, ‘getting into a group’, those sorts of things).
Raiders themselves usually don’t view those things as ‘an issue’, but they very much are for MANY players.
It would probably do that, but I understand that would ruin the game for a specific part of the playerbase. I’m just interested in ideas; I’m not invested enough to have a very strong opinion on it, honestly. LFR does the job that I need it to do.
But this isn’t about my personal preferences. This is about trying to see if there’s things that could be altered about the way raids currently operate, to make them more appealing for ‘the masses’.
But doesnt LFR already resolve all of these issues? The only one of those issues that LFR does not mitigate is “being judged too harshly” but i dont think, short of muting all players, that this can be fixed by blizzard.
You dont need addons or a guild for LFR, scheduling is sorted out by the raid being split down into wings, the system autogroups you so you thats not an issue.
I guess im just not sure how any of these measures would make more people participate especially as LFR already accomodates these things.
It’s not about LFR; that already accommodates the majority.
It’s about the other 3 difficulties, where there’s a drop off in players. And how to get more people into THOSE.
Guess i must be stupid, i dont really understand the ask here.
LFR is there for the people that want to do easy accessible raids. But we want more people to do Normal HC and Mythic.
How do you design content that has a minimum requirement such as DPS and Healing checks not to have difficulty barriers when the whole point of them is to be harder to complete?
Im sure this must also be an issue in other games that have multiple difficulties where some people are unwilling or unable to meet the requirements.
Its kinda like me wanting to be a world class sprinter… ill never be able to do it because im too fat!
Needing addons and being judged harshly by players is the results of performance of each group member. Whether it is held against someone or not is up to the players. Many people here will suggest that everyone needs to find similar-minded groups but that gets us nowhere in the discussion. Leading to another points raised - find a group of randoms where everything goes or raid with guild that prefers schedule or performance checks? Another issue we would have to overcome somehow.
I think we can’t really find any solution here because any change made here will ultimately lead to any sort of player-made rules as a reaction to the game setting. And that is something that can not be changed by Blizzard.
I think it is more about the content itself. It is about progressing to the end of the raid which means you wipe 3 hours on 1 boss every raid evening. Then you go analyse more warcraft logs, try to find answers and hopefully find improvements (cooldowns, healing coordinations, etc). Next raid evening talk to the team to try to make it work and hope you will kill the boss somewhere that evening. It is just tedious.
