It has been clearly described how they both planned the war for weeks. And if you start something, finish it. Nobody praises halfway done jobs. He knew from the very start eventually they would have to face Malfurion and Tyrande. And yet when he meets one of them he starts having second thoughts. When he already thought and made plans about how to handle them and take them down.
Anduin admits in the cinematic Saurfang could’ve killed him and end the war.
He could’ve delivered his body to the Alliance to pay his respects after he has won the battle. Treat the enemy with the same respect.
Bla bla insert random speech about how Anduin fought and lost with honor.
Remember that scene between Priam and Achilles in his tent from Troy? Achilles didn’t start going “Oh sry I killed your son in a duel/war/battle/*random fighting”.
Sorry to inform but even Saurfang mentions the “meatgrinder” debate in a good war. And when you plan a war you go with the classic “Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst”. Again this has been planned ahead and they knew the consequences of their actions. It wasn’t just “Rally the troops and start charging with honor”. They knew loses will happen, understand and accept it.
Every single military mind that plans a battle/war knows there will be deaths. You always try to min max the number of dead or how to secure the victory. The meatgrinder was started with both their approval. It will end when the war ends.
But it seems that crafting war in “World of WARCRAFT” has nothing to do with plans, strategies and war. “Muh honor” takes priority in war. Not victory.
Chronicles frequently glosses over details because of how many there are and only hits the highnotes. This is not new, and has been clarified on twitter by the writers of it, such as https://twitter.com/Burnzerker/status/926247182864232449 when he confirms that they glossed over humans in Northrend because other books went into it.
I’m not retconning anything, I’m saying that your understanding of an extremely minor point of canon was incorrect based on details you weren’t familiar with. There’s no shame in that. I didn’t know it until recently.
Nope. Sylvanas had the general idea, the inspiration, Saurfang was the one leading the troops on the ground as Sylvanas hunted for Malfurion. Further more, Kalimdor troops and Saurfang’s experience won that battle, not anything done by Sylvanas.
I am sorry, I can not accept this. Anduin is a fully armored warrior with ten people around him, it makes no sense to me. Honestly, the entire cinematic is dumb as hell, but eh. Let us not raise this particular point in the debate, too much chaos.
No. Definitely not. The premise of the war is an easy victory for the Horde, crippling the Alliance from within, and not allowing them to retaliate. Saurfang speaks of a “a few days of glory”.
Sylvanas turned that into an all out war for extinction, the entire plan behind a Good War was a lightning fast crippling strike ending the war before it began.
And I fail to appreciate your correction as it is faulty, insufficient, and can be easily explained. Further more, you told me yesterday that the Alliance officer “ordered” plague to be distributed to the prisoner, I check the quest chain, nothing mentions it.
Everything you say from that moment is taken with a grain of salt, as you already missinterpreted the source once. Methinks you are grasping at straws once again.
Further more, the moment between Varian and Saurfang is on regularly updated WOWpedia on several pages, and you are the first person to tell me it was retconned. Ever.
I said no such thing, I said that the Alliance ordered experiments on living prisoners. Which they did. You’ve gone ahead and twisted my words for your own satisfaction.
Wowpedia is a fan-creation and updated by fans, it’s reliant on them updating details, so if no one does so it might be incorrect. I’ve updated details myself when they were lacking. But feel free to verify the quote and check back with me once you’ve done so.
Come again? And you speak to me about twisting words? And I will, provide me with the page number, I gave you that courtesy. You said they were requested by the military, by the officer. You are the one twisting words, mate.
Further more, even if you link the page number, you still won’t prove a thing as you are mutilating a single sentence to twist your own view. A sentence already trashed by the Chronicles.
I’m afraid my take on morality isn’t as prominent as yours, so I’ll have to agree to disagree because neither you nor me will change our pov on that. Which is fine, agreeing on everything would be really annoying.
But I get your point, and what you mean. Thank you for sharing it.
It’s listed on this google doc as page 100. https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=rAR_AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA100&lpg=PA100#v=onepage&q&f=false
Full quote, before and after. There isn’t a perspective given, one could argue it’s either the impersonal objective narration of the writer, or Tyrande’s thoughts.
But believe what you want, others can see the evidence - the Alliance scene in ICC is non-canon per War Crimes, and Chronicles doesn’t invalidate that just as it doesn’t invalidate many other sources that go into more detail than Chronicles does.
Neither of this is proof that the Varian/Saurfang scene is not canon, and I deny, dispute, and vote against it. I already gave you one explanation which suits me, you gave me one which suits you.
Problem is, yours goes against the entire established lore, and it is funny how you claim that the Chronicles do not invalidate other sources, yet you claim that your single sentence, which is no proof, DOES invalidate other sources? Care to explain this curious dichotomy to me?
Both Dranosh scenes at ICC couldn’t be canon at the same time, because they were mutually exclusive.
Therefore either the Horde one or the Alliance one were not canon.
War Crimes clarifies which one is which.
So, wait let me see, you are expecting me to take your raid mechanic as a valid proof of something, although the Alliance was armed and in force in Icecrown at the time, and you suggest that a raid mechanic is proof?
Further more, I have already said, the narrator in the book establishes what a tragedy it was for Saurfang and for the Horde. It is narrated during the Saurfang scene.
You have only proven that the Horde and Saurfang fought against Saurfang junior, which we already know. You have not proven anything else, and I completely and utterly deny this on basis of insufficient evidence, as your main proof is a raid mechanic!
Also, I found this.
In “Lost Honor”, the music used when Anduin asks Saurfang why he didn’t kill him is the same music from the flashbacks to Saurfang and his son during ICC. Why did Blizzard do this then?
edit: I also found a crapload of threads debating this, not one of them has come to a definite conclusion, yet you did?
Yes. That’s what warriors are. He is the iconic definition of the warrior. He is the legendary warrior. Not a wannabe paladin with golden wings.
Prince Hector of Troy: I thought it was you I was fighting yesterday. And I wish it had been, but I gave the dead boy the honor he deserved.
Achilles: You gave him the honor of your sword. You won’t have eyes tonight; you won’t have ears or a tongue. You will wander the underworld blind, deaf, and dumb, and all the dead will know: this is Hector, the fool who thought he killed Achilles.
If we go by Hector’s logic he died with honor. But wait… he is speaking of the same honor he denied Paris in the duel with Menelaus?
But hey he is my little brother so I can’t let him die even though he deserves to die since they both agreed to the duel. Cause honor is not important when faced with imminent death.
And this is one of the reasons why Achilles is an iconic and never to be forgotten warrior and every single human knows about his story. And even after he returns Hector’s corpse, him and Priam are still enemies, he still goes inside that Horse and leads the burning of Troy. Because he understood that honor means nothing when you die.
Meanwhile we have Saurfang the “legendary high WARlord” warrior. Guess he didn’t grind enough weapon skill in vanilla. It’s still rusty. Maybe one day it will penetrate some Alliance Golden armor.
People are deluding themselves if they seriously believe that Zekhan will be an important character or a new key member of the Horde. He is just a plot device for Saurfang, nothing more.
Without weighing in overly on this discussion, I think that is stylised. Saurfang could not have found Saurfang Junior in the way it is shown in the ‘Old Soldier’ Cinematic, whether Saurfang Junior as the dead boy, or Saurfang Junior as the dead DK, neither actually makes sense and is correct as to what happens in lore and in game.
So, uh, don’t get hung up on that, it was representative, not necessarily accurate.
Hey, don’t expect to let the Devs remember their own lore. Afterall they try to make it look like Sylvanas was responsible for Dranosh dying even tho it was the LK who killed him before the blight even deployed.
“Hello, we have this character. We call her Sylvanas, her single defining trait is getting revenge on Arthas. So, what will she do? She will throw plague barrels on the army fighting Arthas. Genius.”
I mean, I hate Sylvanas, but that’s just retarded.