The 19-20 key mark is toxic, full of wannabe professional players who think they are Echo but they are bad…guys its a game have fun and stop being insanely toxic over mistakes and so on, if you were so good you are not playing perfect either not even close, yet these players have the ego to be abusive, narcississtic and toxic over some keys. insane
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The problem is they moved the goal posts. So instead of people generally being done once they hit KSM they had to add all these extra levels. You want to upgrade your gear fully, hit 2400, you keystone master then hit 2500 (tbf that one isn’t a change). Before it was just look here are some teleports and you only have to do it once. Now the weekly is basically a 20 and so much of the player base can’t even do them. Myself included, it’s way out of my comfort range, I only did each dungeon once at 20 for the teleports in S4 and usually I don’t bother with them.
It was never going to make the experience more friendly, it was only ever going to become more elitist and tense. However I will say it’s not exclusive to higher keys, there is toxicity across the board in pugs.
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blizzard is providing toxic gameplay 
blame blizzard for this not the players. players do this in every competitiv game and wow is a wanna be esport game and even more in dragonflight
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+16-+17 is what i currently grind for concentraded focus etc. I don’t wanna push higher tbh it feels too sweaty i agree.
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No one enjoys keys from +17 onwards because blizzard forces everyone to get up to +20 for max rewards.
I for myself hated pushing keys from +15 onwards. That’s why I waited to get KSH in SL till the very end. Now I need to climb up for this stupid vault lottery.
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To be fair it’s endemic throughout wow. I see heroic guilds who demands things of their players that just make me laugh. Meanwhile they still aren’t 8/8 normal but behave like they are on the verge of greatness
Why is everyone so nice in other m+ related topics but in my topic I’m like an evil villain in their eyes?
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Read for about 3 minutes your post. Maybe if you didn’t speak to people so rude and call people I think it was something like clueless randoms then you might have had a more sympathetic response.
Didn’t read it all too long
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Maybe if people’s first impression and message wouldn’t be about “get better. you are terrible loser player” then I wouldn’t respond the way I did either. That is the hidden meaning of their message.
Here I thought it is better to bring this discussion to the forum instead of reddit… oh boy I was wrong.
I think that literally proves my first comment…
I know what made people mad at me. They thought I wanted the reward ilvl nerfed as well since I did not state that before hand. Everyone got that wrong but whatever. I got triggered when everyone started throwing bad stuffs at me but oh well.
Tocix players are toxic regardless of the content or how easy or hard it is.
I do, i enjoy it quite a lot… i will say, AA 21 spanked us hard on first pull 
It’s still early in the Season at the moment.
We’ll gear up more, the dungeons will get nerfed more, and we’ll all eventually make our way to the Goal.
I hit KSM today which was my goal for SL Season 1, and managed it 6 weeks quicker. I suspect it won’t take me that long to get to 2500 from here. But even if it takes up until the last week of the season, I wouldn’t mind really.
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I think blizz gambled on players patience too much. In my guild and friends list I’ve experienced a huge frustration about the new +20 system for max reward.
I also think nerfs will come soon but there are some really good game releases this quarter… So we will see if it was a good decision to overtune m+ so hard in the first season.
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I said it in another thread.
At this point in Shadowlands not that many players were running their Weekly 15s. The dungeons were challenging and some players enjoy that Challenge.
Eventually the dungeons got nerfed and weekly 15s were a more common thing.
I don’t really see the issue with raising that to Weekly 20s at a slightly higher difficulty level.
Personally, I’m happy to have a some 15 vaults this week. Whatever I get from that should help propel me up to the next then and so forth.
It’s not about being at the end from the start. It’s about enjoying the journey getting there.
As I said previously:
Enjoy the challenge, not the reward.
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Oh hey. I just checked your Profile, as I wanted to see which Dungeons/Keys you had competed and at what level.
Although it says you have completed a +20 SMB and got the Feat of Strength for DF S1 KSM. It doesn’t say that you have obtained 2500 score or the DF S1 KSH Feat of Strength.
I’m sure you’re probably not far off the achievement. But yeh, let’s be a little more honest in your titles.
Also, would you mind linking your main. As someone aiming for 2500 myself, I am genuinely interested in which keys I can expect to be working at.
Well, no one is forced to do anything.
I really don’t get these “This and that sucks because you are forced to do this and that super high level activity for it so please change it” arguments. Stuff like that is designed for people who want to sweat and who want to push their limits in really difficult content and thats absolutely fine.
The problem is that there are so many people nowadays that feel like they should be able to get everything that there is in the game and that if they are not able to get something, it should be changed to whatever they are able to (or wanting to) do.
Its fine that not everyone will get everything. Its what makes high rewards for high difficulty content feel rewarding. The mentality of the players is the problem here (This is also why they felt the need to add stuff like Raid Finder, which was a horrible addition to the game imo).
I myself have not done a key above +15 so far - But I might in the future, we’ll see.
I’m fine with not getting the rewards from higher keys though, I can live with the fact that I am just not up there yet. Why can’t others?
Besides that though, I’d agree that the community is very toxic at times. And I have not even been to the real sweaty keys yet, so I can only imagine how much worse it gets up there. The community is a big problem in WoW, but communities generally tend to get toxic in competitive environments. That is not the games fault though.
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I have done one mythic so far in DF, that will be the last (with pugs) im too old to get yelled at in M+.
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The actual problem is that the GEARING sucks. m+ only players are struggling while mythic raiders are naked tanking +20 with their mythic shield and sell gold runs at +22 with an afk player at entrance.
All this due to Ion catering raiders and due to insane scaling of ilvl so difference is gigantic at 420-430 compared to 390-400 in ilvl
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This. I did a single 20 in my lifetime, not even in DF, and it was enough for me. 16/17 was my sweet spot in SL.
Pretty much, but if one lives to push that far, they get a bit better gear compared to SL. That said… I should consider myself lucky to even get KSM, let alone KSH this season. It’d be too much sweat for too little reward, and a burnout.
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