So, I am not the best rogue but I’m okay, better than average. Much prefer 1 on 1s and BGs to Arena.
I am getting the impression that assassination is just so poor for PVP, lacks the burst dmg. I often open with Ambush (as I’m deathdealer) > cheap > garrote > shiv > rupture > vanish
Then I’ll ambush again, apply death mark and then use evasion, cloak, kick, gouge and kidney when necessary for interrupts and to try and assert control over my opponent.
It’s at this point where things usually all go wrong and I get wtf 2 shotted or just out healed. I keep bleeds up, spam mutilate (which does so little dmg) and envenom when at full combo points. Healers just out last me, demon hunters just stun me and two shot me with their dragon a** breath, paladins just seem impossible and don’t even get me started on warlocks, druids and disc priests. It feels like most classes can just so easily out heal my dmg whilst also inflicting more dmg than me. I actually feel like I have all the tools to out manoeuvre my opponents particularly with shadowstep which is a game changer vs mages and hunters but my dmg output is just pathetic.
The only classes I have much luck with are Hunters, mages (if I get the jump) and depressingly other rogues. My PVP item lvl is 633 so not bad gear wise either.
It feels to me as if Assassination is a PVE spec - lots of DOTS, slice and dice etc
Am I being OTT or can others relate? It seems most top rogues atm are playing outlaw? Or perhaps rogues are no longer ganking machines but more useful for CC control?
Any classes which aren’t predominantly healers, I’ll use crippling and deadly poison and vs healers crippling / wound. If I haven’t got deathmark ready to use, most of the time I won’t even bother. Also feel the improved garrote and 6 second silence is wasted as with Deathdealer, it encourages the rogue to open with Ambush.
Idk to me damage is like the 1 thing assa actually does pretty well, and they fall off a bit in comparison to the other rogue specs in survivability and sustain.
Whether it’s worse than the other 2 rogue specs in pvp?
Not sure, I haven’t done blitz for a few weeks, but when I did play it, it seemed very good mostly, a bit weak maybe in kotmogu since they’re so bad at keeping orbs.
Well assas are 5th most played melee for 2100 eu blitz and 4th for 2100 eu shuffle so they are not bad. In blitz your job is like any other rogue spec to yoink bases or defend or sit on enemy flag carrier and thats pretty much all, never go in team fights as thats not rogues job, so you should not be in position where youre focused like in shuffles. In shuffles everyone likely focuses you yes and you work around your cds like rogues have always done, you have to figure when to use your dps cds when it matters just like your defensives. Your main task is to be disruptive and stop other peoples cds, rog is not a straight forward brawler so it takes bit more thought than those.
Anyways you can look from there and take these for general guidance, eu is pretty minmax and tends to favour what is most overtuned for the moment so in general representations are decent to measure current power level of things but still its just how many players are on some position with some spec x.
If you prefer 1v1/bg over arenas and feel your burst is not that good compared to other classes, you will definitely enjoy subtlety more. Assa is a bleed spreader, you do that in Arena and BG the same alike, you are not meant to burst one person in one go, that’s what sub-rogue does. So yes, assa is somewhat pve-ish gameplay even in PVP, you got that right, it’s because the more dots you spread, the more energy you get back and the more envenom you pump out, which is basically the PVE rotation (for both hero talents are meant to boost envenom, unfortunately) so that’s why it might feel that way. Your burst is on Deathmark, and that is on 2min cd, while sub bursting almost every minute and it lines up with the badge as well. Similarly to other dps classes, the burst goes out more often, while yours is more consistent. So I’d recommend you go sub for your style of gameplay.
For sure, could be a skill question. I don’t claim to be a brilliant rogue but I also don’t think I am awful.
Alythena - thanks for your reply. Yes, I agree so much of BGs as a rogue is about picking your fights, if you break stealth with 3-4 opponents around you pretty obvious you are going to get smoked unless you’re being healed. Perhaps rogue in the TWW just isn’t for me, I enjoyed it in vanilla when fights were shorter and people had less defenses. I also enjoy 1 vs 1 fights, world PVP and duelling which seem to have all become non-existent in TWW. Arena is appealing to me but the learning curve is just too high for me to be bothered with, need to learn basically every other classes kicks, cooldowns and how to fight against different setups. I also feel like rogue is the most scatty class, constantly button bashing and at times feels like I have to press 50 buttons vs another class which is using far less (warlock, shadow priest, hunter)
I think the appeal of rogue to me is the lore of hiding in the shadows and being able to kill others quickly. Now the class feels anything but that - used for crowd control in arenas and like you say, in BGs, can’t really get stuck in with DPS, have to contribute in other ways which aren’t particular fun (camping bases for example)
Coollerqq - thank you, yes I may indeed give sub another go - I levelled as Sub and started to get frustrated with how many different buttons there were particularly when you factor in subterfuge means you need to find another 4-5 keybindings as your stealth action bar doesn’t change for 6 seconds when you break stealth. Pretty much essential to use shift + keybindings thanks to subterfuge. For example, I used to have cheap shot and mutilate / backstab on F but that no longer really works as I have to wait 6 secs for mutilate to become available again and hence, have to find another binding.
Also, I’m not sure if top 5 melee is particularly impressive ha, if it was top 5 overall, sure.
Almost all from fury to bm that you face most now in shuffles are more tanky than rogue so you would feel weaker if base it entirely on brawling these opponents in shuffles currently, they are so overtuned that they can win you by doing something 123 but you have to think your cd usage bit more than them. But I would just play blitz anyway and all rog specs are good there when just focused on objectives imo. I wish you good luck
Ps. The representation of 2100 eu shuffles bm is brutal to witness
oh man, I feel sorry for you to experience that, but that is not how is it supposed to work. Subterfuge should work normally without a need to bind the same abilities to another button, the same goes with shadow dance. Play around with your keybinds or give a BindPad addon a try, but what you wrote is definitely something you shouldn’t be doing.
you have static abilities over the abilities in your dynamic bar, don’t you? I recommend you give a cheap shot hard bind that is not shared with anything else and bind the rest as you are used to. Bs will automatically swap for sstrike, same for mutilate and ambush. Except these abilities put everything on hard chosen keybing and not let them share that bind with any other ability.
Rog was the only class I farmed weapons from pvp in vanil just doing what you described just sitting 90% game in stealth, it has best toolkit for capping bases and getting other peoples trinkets, multiple cc on different dr that you can force trinkets and use another cc to cap base, its really good for it. If you like this type gameplay where you play objectives and chill in stealth then rog is really good and actually the best class right now for blitz statistically aswell but shuffle would be different story yeah.
I like warlock currently cause it casts alot and Im old and hate classes with high apm, so that is something to consider too if want “chill” class
Here is any spec of rogue heading to cap mines/lh in gilneas and when succesful being the deciding factor of the entire matchup lol
@ coolerqq - Maybe I didn’t explain myself well. E.g - I used to have cheap shot and backstab bound to F. So if I pressed F>F, it would be so easy to do cheap shot > backstab
However, with subterfuge, that won’t work, it will just spam cheap shot for 6 seconds when out of stealth. Therefore, you have to find another key to bind backstab to.
I asked quite a few people if there was any way around this an the consensus was no, you just have to add a few more key bindings to your options.
I used to love sharing the same bindings for two different moves in and out of stealth but that’s not possible where I used to implement this for cheap shot, ambush and sap (anything from stealth basically) - it essentially meant I had to find 3 additional key bindings when rogue already has so many abilities.
1 - Ambush / Crimson vial out of stealth
2 - kick
3 - gouge
4 - kidney
5 - Sprint
q - shiv
f - cheap shot / mutilate out of stealth
g - sap
v - blind
c- stealth
x - garotte
e - envenom
Mouse middle button - vanish
Mouse side button - shadowstep
Shift + e - evasion
Shift + f - cloak
Caps lock - death mark
T - PVP trinket
Then I have things like like fan of knives, slice and dice, crimson tempest and poisoned knife not even bound to anything. These 4 things I just click on. That’s a total of 24 abilities btw!
Just took screenshots to show you but it won’t let me include links on here
It blows my mind Pikaboo has super super important bindings on 7 and 8. Like, I have to look down to find those keys, anything beyond qrcxv123456 is a faff.
Thanks for the macro suggestion.
Sorry, didn’t mean for the thread to turn into a keybindings debate!
well, there is a workaround that would suit you and it’s called cast sequence macro, however, they are not good practice to use and as I said above, you should not be getting used to sharing abilities bind in a different stance, because some are available in both stances and you might find you in a position needing that ability, like you explained just now. So game forcing you to keybind abilities separately is a good thing for you.
I would have only something like backstab/shadowstrike/muti on same with stealth condition but I would bind cheap shot and kidney shot separately cause shadow dance. Maybe you would find use for these sap/stealth type macros that I made if you want to save buttons
Theres no reason really why blizz couldnt put sap in same key with stealth as we cant sap without stealth/dance and we cant press stealth if we have dance on so…
Without subterfuge I’d argue it’s great practice. Good old vanilla days lol of cheap shot > backstab > kidney shot > backstab > evis
For me that was F > F > Q > F > E
However, like you say, with subterfuge you now have to find a way around it which is fine, it’s just makes things more difficult and forces you to key bind a few more buttons which isn’t particularly helpful for a class which already has so many abilities.
this macro again dont seem a good practice, because it does two things. If you want to stealth during dance, you simply create a cast stealth macro including a cancelaura to shadow dance, also you can make that stealth forced with ! before the ability to make it forces (therefore spamming it doesn’t cancel your stealth as well).
You cant, we cant sap without stealth/dance and we cant press stealth if we have dance and theres no reason to press dance randomly if we could press stealth.
well it’s not Vanila anymore, rogue is utility based class which means it requires a lot from a player to utilize during the fight, if you want something easy play retri paly.
Alythena:
and what is that argument for, you mean sharing a sap bind with something else? Again, not a good practice because now you’d do two different things with one bind. You don’t want to have that confusion during the heat of combat. Sap should have its own bind that is used in a situation like any other ability for any other class.
