The question to the OP that must be asked, if whether you would kill Warchief Baine if he became Horde leader? Kill Warchief is bad, but is that applied indiscriminately regardless of who occupies the position?
EDIT: The ‘We was Trick’d’ Defence is permissable.
You are wrong here. At least I am Sylvanas fan, but I don’t like the road, that you mentioned.
In fact we have only traitors in this path.
We don’t know what will happen, if traitor Saurfang execute Malfurion.
We don’t know, that Baine is traitor or manipulated traitor ro bring Derek Proudmoore near Jaina.
So we still don’t have vision to Sylvanas plan. We have only parts from traitors side.
This drivel again? You do realize the dead-girl you’re fawning over has demeaned and betrayed her own warchief numerous times, so you’re putting one ‘traitor’ over another, and that the only reason people act like it was OK was because said Warchief eventually turned into a big-bad – the same thing that is being teased in this story no matter how much Blizz tell you it’s not going to be Garrosh 2.0. As such, I bet you believe it was OK for her, but not for anyone else seeing as now that it is against her for the same exact reasons.
The one consistent thing this story-arc has proven is that neither faction functions overly well under one leader now that both have so many sub-factions under them with their own views and ways, not even Anduin (who has a softer approach to leadership compared to Sylvanas). The Nelves defy him for want of vengeance, and even Genn can’t let them go.
Meanwhile, the question of what is ‘Honor’ is the constant on Horde side. Nobody betrayed ‘the Horde’, they have simply stood up to their leader whom they believe is going against the Horde way. You can call this the same thing if you wish, which means you’re rooting for a Hitler’esque heirarchy where the word of the one up top should be the be-all-end-all for all factions, which is funny considering how the Horde began as a rag-tag group of misfit-races looking to make a new home for themselves, with a leader constantly open to council from all of them rather than being a dictator.
On that note, I attribute anyone who still spouts drivel about ‘traitors’ as people who probably haven’t been keeping up with the story, or are representing the literal ‘fanboy’ who will just lap up anything Sylvanas does and everyone-else-be-damned.
You can like her, and you can like this new path she’s pushing the Horde down, but to call everyone else traitors for representing the old ways in this story-arc is just zZzZzzZzz.
In the end the traiters will overwhelm the current Horde and stand against the current leadership. Call them traiters, I call them Horde.
Attempt at being funny:
I refuse to let the horde kill steal an other warchief.
Let the alliance win for a change and not rely on the horde turning on itself.
I am glad that you finally realised that I, Baine Bloodhoof, was Horde all along. For the Horde!
Go back to your Alliance, Baine. I will never forgive you that you started to support Jaina after she raided my city.
That you still have a city is likely only because I stopped Derek from assassinating the Proudmoores. We would not be able to reason her down like we did after Theramore.
Saurfang have a lot of bad sides when you begin to look in story.
Original horde was Garrosh horde vision. He was strictly loyal in there.
Anduin because, he can’t stand even near to Sylvanas, use Saurfang as alliance puppet. And Saurfang why have such redemption and forgot all the worse things, that he do? But to come back, he justify alliance plan versus Sylvanas. It’s just used by boy king.
He don’t kill boy king, when he have that chance.
He don’t execute Malfurion and now in future, Malfurion can come back and kill horde people, even his horde people.
About Garrosh, don’t forget Saurfang loyalty to the end of Garrosh, there wasn’t moral delusion versus Garrosh as Warchief.
Also challenging Sylvanas will prove honor, defeating her will prove strength. We have only dirty moves at back, this is not what horde actually honor.
Also we have that best traitor move, to allow to be captured by alliance and than we know from story he want alliance to kill horde warchief, this move can’t take redemption. And flag as traitor is on Saurfang arms, just because that.
Yes yes, everyone except Sylvanas is a traitor.
Sylvanas was also a traitor back in MoP where she stranded against Garrosh.
The Proudmoores would be dead and the war as good as over. Your actions sabotaged us ever since you took leadership for the Tauren. Traiterrrrrr.
Yes, because Jaina looked so welcoming towards Derek, even when the Horde leader she trusted the most handed him over.
Double standard, did you see them?
Also for Saurfang loyalty to Garrosh ![:slight_smile:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/slight_smile.png?v=6" ":slight_smile:")
Were? Did you heard what he said in Warsong Offensive? Did you saw him in MoP? Did you read Warcrimes?
You’ve just contradicted yourself by automatically admitting lack of awareness of the story. One of the most blatant and unmissable (in-game) examples being where Saurfang was one of few Orcs with the balls to try and coach Garrosh about the old Horde ways, back when good old hot-head-hellscream wanted to pit the Horde against the Scourge and Alliance simultaneously.
This does not even go into all of the external media or any other intricate / lesser-known details of him doing the exact same thing elsewhere during the story or the books, such as War Crimes where he gave his 2-cents about Garrosh in fantasy-court and of his view on this so-called ‘true horde’.
Saurfang was also en route with Thrall to personally stop Garrosh, except Saurfang held the line against the Klaxxi by himself whilst Thrall went in alone.
Loyal to Garrosh? Sure - insofar as he was a personal advisor to the Warchief - but just like then (and now) Saurfang is pro-Horde, not pro ‘just because you’re the Warchief doesn’t mean we should forsake all our Horde values for the sake of your personal whims’. He was part of the revolution once Garrosh was written to go lolrosh-1.0 big-bad, and he hasn’t changed a bit now that Blizzard are teetering Sylvanas on the edge of being Garrosh 2.0.
Isn’t it funny how Saurfang, a very consistent character in the story ever since he was given any kind of lore, is actually the one being misinterpreted all the time, while a certain Banshee Queen who has always been a somewhat grey self-server with questionable motives, is being treated like she’s the straight arrow of this story?
So yeah, by all means, tell me more drivel about how Sylvanas is the good guy leading a horde of traitors. I’ll be over here facepalming about how such mentality essentially ignores the story built since vanilla. No, before vanilla even existed.
Before the Storm:
Sylvanas acknowledges that Saurfang will challenge her as soon as she crosses the line.
A Good War:
Saurfang states he will challenge her to a Makgora if she orders something over the line.
BfA
Sylvanas crosses the line.
Saurfang decides to make suicide by Alliance. Twice.
But ends up in jail until is inspired by the Human Teen King…to flee.
—————
Yeah, very consistent with how his character was portrayed so far.
Wonder why people dislike his current depiction…
Oh, you mean the Honourable death he’s wanted for ages - the thing that has been a staple of Orc culture since as long as we’ve had Orcs in any iteration of Warcraft, in reference to one of the most decorated war veterans/survivors in WoW history.
Heaven forbid they might actually play up on his age and desire now that he’s more than a cameo NPC-cleave-machine or advisor since his stint at Ahn’qiraj and actually at the forefront of the story for a change.
Meanwhile, can anyone even guess what Sylvanas has in store for anyone right now despite being at the front for the guts of two expansions? Other than the fact that her self-serving nature is pretty much the only consistent thread she’s ever really had? Funny then how even that miniscule line of consistency is in question now that everyone believes she’ll be the next Kerrigan.
You’re going to have to do much better than put a magnifying glass on a little lump of obvious bias to try and claim Saurfang isn’t being consistent in terms of his values and the Horde. They hold up, as does his view/actions in relation to all past iterations of the game vs how he views Sylvanas, just like how he did Garrosh and other past politics, no matter how poor the writing/scenario this expansion has or how little justice it is doing ANY of its characters.
No, I mean the fact that he has been always stating his love for the Horde and the desire and willingness to battle face to face anyone that threatens it.
I was talking about the way he openly states, several times, his willingness to do the same with Sylvanas.
And how the story made him back down from said standpoint, when it was time to actually do it.
And that’s no ‘tiny lump’.
It’s a simple fact that has a character that has boasted all his life about how upfront he is regarding stuff, doing exactly the opposite he preached about.
He said he would. Repeatedly.
But when the time came, he didn’t. Repeatedly too.
It’s a big deal if the biggest exponent of orcish values decides its better to give up, commit suicide, or leave, rather than doing what he preached about, and challenge the ‘problem’ openly. Smacks of hypocrisy that is probably signalled as such basically because some writer can’t keep her bias in her pants and needs to drag him down the mud in order to make the story “work” as intended.
But please, by all means continue praising that story. I’m sure it fits your raging Sylvanas hate speech just fine. ![:roll_eyes:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/roll_eyes.png?v=6" ":roll_eyes:")
But please, by all means, quote any point where I praised the story. Referencing the story to put forward a point =/= praise. You don’t see me complimenting anything about it, because I’m not.
I’m sure you can quote any point where I bashed Sylvanas, other than pointing out the well-known fact that the only consistent thread she’s had since the original WC games post-death is the self-serving forsaken preservation society mentality – you know, that thing which is quite literally her poke-quote since day 1.
Meanwhile, 90% of the forums are going on about X and Y being a traitor, despite them being more consistent / unshrouded than BFA’s undead poster-child, and the fact she herself was traitorous against her own warchief - but that’s magically OK it seems.
The irony here is that Sylvanas’ angle is being deliberately shrouded for plot purposes, just like Saurfang’s pro-old-ways mentality is also being emphasised for the plot. The conflict between those two ideals is literally the whole point of the Horde story right now. I can understand people being diveded over it, but I’ll always cringe at the people who take it so extreme that they can’t view the story for what it is without turning it into a character v character love/hate-fest without any reading between the lines.
You realize he’s doing exactly that, right? That it’ll be at the climax of this expansion one way or another? You know, the thing that was the backbone of almost all of the cinematics where he’s being built up to go anti-Sylvanas? What, did you actually expect Saurfang v Sylvanas would be randomly thrown in right at the introductory portion of BFA as a Mak’gorah? Is that the only way you’d accept it?
Here’s another nugget for you, straight from the cinematic. “I hoped you would stop her”. He would have gotten his Honorable death AND given ample means for Sylvanas to have been removed as Warchief, except she had an ace up her sleeve, and he wasn’t killed. So, we go back again to the simple fact that, yes, Saurfang is being consistent. Him not going Mak’gorah instant-mode right at the beginning doesn’t change this. It has been part of a progressing arc since the pre-expansion written story that anyone can read on the website.
I’d love to see people’s faces if they wrote it so that main characters like Saurfang / Baine legitimately just went Cairne on Sylvanas with literal Mak’gorah right out of the gate. The writers get it in the neck right now for how they actually wrote it (and rightly so), but it’d have been hilariously worse if something like that happened to rub even more salt in the Horde wound.
Instead, it is no different to Thrall vs Garrosh. It gets teased and used to stir the story plot, then you get a result (typically by the end of the expansion, or in Thrall/Garrosh’ case, the next one). Not always a good result, but it’s so blatantly obvious that this whole ordeal will be milked until some revelation that leads to the forging of a new Horde. It’ll no doubt involve the deposition of Sylvanas (definitely not death, otherwise they’ll get lauded for making literal Garrosh 2.0, which they claim they’re avoiding).