I mean, there is always the possibility of them making some small difference in regards to Garrosh, then saying “LOOK GUYS, IT ISN’T GARROSH, WE TOLD YOU! AREN’T WE BRILLIANT?”
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My face at this cyclical story telling for the Horde.
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Apart from challenging Sylvanas directly. Apart from his honor moves from behind. Apart from his history with Garrosh.
How this act, willingly working with the alliance to defeat the horde. How he is not a traitor?
Please note that it’s not only versus Sylvanas, but it’s horde at all. Yep it’s Sylvanas horde, but all the alliance teamwork that Saurfang support, can not exclude horde and include Sylvanas.
Definition for traitor:
“A person who betrays another, a cause, or any trust.” He is betraying his Warchief by trying to depose her. No matter the cause, he is traitor.
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Sylvanas is a traitor of the Horde. She betrayed their ideals… she betrayed the honor of their members!
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“But… But muh honor”!!!111
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Nice posturing, but we all know you’re gonna change your mind as soon as you see Sylvie’s loot table.
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The big truth is both trashrunner and saurfang are completely dumb and the only way forwards is for the nightborne to take on the mantle of warchief and to finish what sylv began by burning Feathermoon down too.
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With allies such as these blood elves, who needs enemies?
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Nelflets get out
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I am Baine, your future Warchief!..after Warchief Nathanos. If we must have one more ‘Evil Horde Warchief’ narrative, let it be Nathanos.
Imagine a twist to the story, most people think how Tyrande is not a character of the action, and consider her weak, and alliance as a goody two shoes faction. What a surprise would be if Tyrande as a night warrior would burn Sylvanas as the witch on fire at the end of expansion because she is responsible for burning of the Teldrassil and the genocide on the night elves. With an ending like that we would get what we are missing atm, the night elves would be avenged and the Tyrande would get the revenge she seeks, the Sylvanas would get a proper punishment for the crimes she caused and wouldn’t need to be ended by horde from inside and the alliance with an action like that would stop being seen as a totally light and noble faction but instead the one with a shade of the gray to it.
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Bet you three WoW tokens it doesn’t happen. I could hope for it to happen but…nah. BfA’s been such a poor job overall.
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Sadly I think how you are right, things like that could be expected from a CDPR and the Witcher writing team but not from a current Blizzard which is portraying everything in the black and white fashion that it started to be boring and predictable.
To ‘defeat the horde’? It takes a special brand of grey-matter to actively try and twist the blatantly obvious in such a nonsense manner to suit their own opinion, and makes it out like you have not seen a single cinematic or followed the story whatsoever - and to think it is done purely in defence of someone who has been more traitorous to their own Warchief. The sigh is big with this one.
It’s against Sylv - 110% - as evidenced by all dialogue involving that arc, from the written story, to the introductions, to the BoLordaeron, to the aftermath, to all Saur-related cinematics, going as far as reaching out to the past Warchief in the hopes they would also fight ‘for the Horde’. You know, the thing he’s trying to FIX, not ‘defeat’, against the one person he believes is killing it.
You know, you can be pro-Sylvanas without resorting to the notion that the story doesn’t actually exist.
The entire point of the story is Old Horde Ways vs Weaponized Horde. The problem (for those who don’t agree with the latter) is the leadership. You know, the one pushing all Horde representatives away (or going as far as wanting them dead), apparently opting to assassinate key targets, even one’s who are actively AVOIDING the Horde (ie. Thrall), even though we know that is just a plot-device to motivate him. Shrouded / unclear goals, obvious attempt of keeping her as a maybe-is-maybe-not villain for possible redemption purposes, the fact her entire character has always been in part about her shrouded goals for herself and her people above all else, with the Horde as a convenient tool… Despite the fact she has somewhat contradicted herself with the slaughter of her own people on numerous occasions when their goals don’t suit her, even those who never (directly) opposed her, like the council… Or the Forsaken reaching out to their families.
You haven’t a pot to pee in if you genuinely think Saurfang is anti-Horde, other than the fact he is opposing its current Warchief, just like we’ve already done in previous expansions. If you’re the type who screams “Going against the Warchief is going against the Horde” then you’re the prime target for this story, about the conflict of interests - and it’s sailing right over your head despite it. I guess everyone is a traitor in that case - Sylvanas most of all as she went behind not-bad Garrosh AND bad-Garrosh AND was part of the revolution that deposed him for good measure… And hell, even plotting with her Alliance-based sister to kill him while he was incarcerated.
But hey, loose throwaway use of the word ‘traitor’ on these forums seems to be the norm these days.
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I see you can make good looking posts, but in fact doesn’t say much.
There is no direct confrontation Saurfang VS Sylvanas. This is the way, that honorable orcs take - Mak’gora. We know rules about magics, so fight is in strength and honor aspect and equal for booth.
Instead we have traitor:
- Allow to be captured by alliance. This alone make him coward and should be executed for this.
- Work with alliance. He hopes that the boy king would do it for him. He is a pathetic traitor. Working with alliance leader, that have killed so much of his horde is unbelievable for such experienced and old soldier. Working with Anduin is the only way that alliance have chance versus Sylvanas and it’s used by boy king with all the honor with him. It’s alliance puppet.
- Moral delusion from direct orders by Warchief.
- All things that he do at back of Sylvanas are dishonorable. This is not the honor that he defend so much.
I agree for Sylvanas past, but now we have same future for Saurfang, as I state before, this is double standard for booth.
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i mean… i play this character currently as seeing sylvanas’ warmongering ways as beneficial for his selfish want to avenge the loss of dazar’alor, but out of character, i couldn’t help but to at least point out similar parallels to certain accusations against saurfang to sylvanas:
such as sylvanas wanting to end it all after LK was dead and gone. that’s pretty cowardly at least in the role of leadership if her own sayings about preservation has any effect…
tombshine is still correct on this. no matter how one chooses to overlook it, sylvanas did this herself by also asking alleria to kill garrosh for her.
makes her a pathetic traitor then, with this logic.
she has a record of disobeying other warchiefs too. quite a bit actually. some of them to do her own thing.
so because sylvanas is chief and she has clearly stated she does not give a flying tauren bottom about the concept of honour, does this mean she is exempt from the rule as well?
that’s one of the strange parallels i find with these comparisons. which is a bit triggering tbh.
mind you, overall, you’re not wrong about saurfang being a dolt, idiot and a traitor, but i honestly wouldn’t just throw the wizard’s coat over what sylvanas has done/did and pretend it isn’t happening to save face.
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And you approve my point. Let Sylvana WAS traitor before, but current traitor is Saurfang ![:slight_smile:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/slight_smile.png?v=6" ":slight_smile:")
What about direct honor way at Mak’gora, the way that horobale orcs should use. Why his “right” decision was to be captured and used by alliance, the boy king who killed a lot of horde members?
May be he can’t to stay strong in front of Sylvanas? His choice is coward and traitor way. This is not the honor you defend, but it’s dishonor, that ignore all the time.
but then… on the same hand, sylvanas’ bad deeds are straight up ignored. simply because she’s the warchief currently, or because it’s not her turn right now.
you’re pretty much proving the point that, whilst i fully acknowledge that Saurfang should go and get kicked off a cliff for being out-of-character (at least to me), im also acknowledging that sylvanas isn’t the perfect symbol most supporters try to make her out to be.
as for honour, that is an extremely tired subject and i’m growing frankly a bit dissuaded when that becomes the only attack direction. simply put, this is a point where diehard supporters on either side are willing to smash each others heads in whilst ignoring the probable fact that blizzard only did this to play their ‘morally grey’ card.
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He asked to be killed. That is what he wanted. It is also what he wanted in the cinematic. Just because it wasn’t given to him doesn’t mean that is suddenly his desire.
Yes, he had hoped Anduin would stop her. This is not the same as working together. Anduin freed him on the basis that he was an honorable Orc and had a similar goal. This is not equal to the two of them literally working together, he was simply freed.
Yes, we get it, you’re all for the concept of having to bend the knee to your one favourite overlord without question, despite the fact that the Horde has never been that way outside of invasion-Horde and Garrosh-Horde. All the character building, plot-stirring and inbetween be damned - Sylvanas asked you to do something dishonourable - better do it without question and completely remove any potential drama relating to fleshed out Hordies.
I find this very ironic. I look forward to a loooong list of honorable things the Warchief herself has done lately, especially in a story literally based on the concept of Honorable Horde being forced to do disagreeable things due to her lack of actual care for Honour.
As has already been mentioned, you’re making a big effort to defend a character who has done drastically more dishonourable things to multiple Warchief’s, nevermind been less than stellar in terms of Honour as a Warchief herself. Next thing you’ll be saying how he should have just sat down and accepted her judgement after she plotted to have Saurfang captured and assassinated, not long before sending assassins after Thrall and his family for shady reasons, despite him having nothing to do with anything and willingly hiding from all Alliance/Horde issues.
Let me guess, Thrall must be a traitor too for some banal reason, right? It seems to be fashionable on the forums to ignore all story and spout ‘traitor’, or some glowing report of how Sylvanas did nothing wrong, while she has free reign to be the shady queen and make up the rules.
Sorry, no. It’s becoming increasingly difficult not to chalk this consistent ignoring of story in defence of Sylvanas as either deluded, ignorant, or trolling - and the fun part is I’m not even a Sylvanas hater. I’m looking forward to seeing how this all pans out. Still, nothing you say goes beyond what she herself has done numerous times in the past, the difference now being that she’s the Warchief herself and thus can set her own standards.
Mak’gorah? We’ve already established that as being one of the most laughable things they could have done at that point in the story. It will likely happen, be it words or a literal battle, but not right at the very beginning of the expansion.
Feel free to blow more smoke about how one of the most loyal veteran Orcs of 3+ wars in the name of the Horde, who can’t fathom the methods employed by its more recent ‘Overlord’ – in a Horde story literally BASED on the notion of “Honorable Horde” now being used by a Warchief who has absolutely no care or consideration for Honor at all – is less honourable or a ‘traitor’ outside of defying that one person, just like how Sylvanas has quite casually defied almost everyone of her peers as a racial leader and even gone against her own people, contrary to her entire character arc of being pro-Forsaken/herself over everything else.
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Did you see that I defend Sylvanas? I just talk how, so much worse things, that Saurfang do are ignored and put on honorable side, that actually are not.
This loyal veteran was so much loyal to Garrosh. And Garrosh present worse side of the horde.
No matter, how laughable Mak’gora is. Here I like, how broke a things. We don’t care what writers will do about story. We talk how honorable orcs do a things. This is not present in any actions of Saurfang.
For Anduin, here we have two sides. It’s not only honor. It’s advantage that Saurfang will be versus current horde. It’s used by boy king. It can’t be just let it free, never things are not just, specially when we talk about warr. The act of freedom and aid from alliance shows, that Saurfang will have two traitors choices directly to aid versus Sylvanas horde and indirectly. For now we see only indirectly dishonorable moves.
Saurfang was with two chances to end the war. He lead the war versus Night Elves and the moment of winning, he betray warchief direct order and betray the war. If here begin to look what writers do/ as you/ is to save Malfurion in exchange of burning tree. So can believe, that, if Malfurion was executed, World Tree will be untouched. Keep in mind that every horde soldier, every future horde civilians and members, that Malfurion will kill or order to kill, all deaths will be entirely on Saurfang side.
He should have moral delusion before he manage the war, that he start and lead. Saurfang also should answer for all the deaths on both sides.
No matter how blizzard writers present things as honorable, things are shown to benefit alliance. Saurfang is traitor and nothing more by splitting the horde in half, serving the interests of your enemy, aiding them in killing members of the Horde.
Here we should understand and Sylvanas, if you have someone working with your foe to kill you and you do nothing to stop him, you’re an idiot.