[Idea] Arms warrior design: Shadowlands and forwards

[Atahalni-argent-dawn (Atahalni)]

Contents:
a) Introduction
b) Arms warrior class fantasy
c) List of baseline abilities
d) Talents
e) Rotation examples
f) Conclusions

1. Introduction

Greetings all warriors-and non-warriors out there. I come to you with this personal idea of mine on how to improve arms warrior design going forward into Shadowlands (and beyond), and to gather feedback on how you’d like these changes.

However, before we go on, I’d like to make it clear that even with the proposed changes, there’s a lot more things I’d like to get done alongside these things (e.g. Glyphs, class talents, etc), but this idea list is something that is completely based on the current systems we have in place. Further, my idea is to add a lot of new & old stuff back to arms warriors (particularly features that seem to have worked and have been liked by the playerbase), but this is not the only class I’d like to do that on. In fact, if you are interested of my approach on class design, take a look at this shadow priest revamp idea I had (My idea for Shadow Priest 9.0 Spec/Class design (LF FEEDBACK))

The bottom line is this: The idea is to define the warrior class fantasy, to fix the class on fundamental aspects it lacks (e.g. Sustain and selfhealing), and to make the gameplay fluid, regardless of what approach you choose to customize the class with in regards to talents. Further, if some players reading this come to the idea that “this might be too much”, read this not in the context of BFA, but future expansions: Classes overall have been pruned and simplified quite a bit, and my idea is to bring a lot of abilities baseline back to all the classes, not just warriors, so keep that in mind.

Without further a-due, lets get right into it!

2. Arms warrior class fantasy

Arms warrior has been, to put it mildly, a damp rag since Legion, really. While a lot of people here will say that they might have liked the “Hard hitting” playstyle of Legion, the said expansion also brought us a very frustrating RNG element to our mastery called “tactician”, which made the damage unpredictable. Further, the debuffing also meant that outside of colossus smash, the class did little to no cleave damage or aoe damage. BFA attempted to fix this by adding bleed wounds and making tactician not as important, but ended up creating a rage starved playstyle and damage buildup that resembled that of a feral druid, not a warrior.

Further, both of these expansions significantly gutted the utility and selfhealing/sustain of warriors, which doesn’t really make any sense since we’re a plate wearing class and the OG tank-class. We should be able to take some hits and deal back some, not be walked over by just about every melee on the roster. And it’s not even that warrior has necessarily been a bad spec damage wise: on the contrary, it has shined on the meters during both expansions, but the gameplay has nonetheless been one-dimensional and clunky or boring.

The talents of warriors are also really problematic, with very little choice existing, and some of the talents are outright mandatory to play with. Further, for some god-awful reason we must choose between basic things like self-heal and cc, which doesn’t make any sense.

So, what is the class fantasy of warriors? I personally answer that by looking at other melee classes. DK’s and paladins are warriors, but with magic. Monks are these tactical martial-arts masters, while rogues are the dirty tricks fighters. The list goes on, but what does it leave to the warrior?

The answer is quite simple. Warriors are peak performance fighters that match all these other cosmic powers and ability users with sheer power, skill and will. They’re the only class able to dualwield two weapons, the only class able to jump 30+ feet in full plate armor, and the only plate class able to hit their opponents so grievously that even magical healing is dampened by mortal wounds. This hasn’t been utilized by the developers, but that’s alright. I have.

Further, arms warrior is described in the tooltip as a “master of arms and a tactician” that deals precise, heavy blows to take down his opponents, and lead others into victory. Now, I personally lean more on the “precision” side of arms warriors, but I recognize many people also like the heavy hitting juggernaut fantasy. So why not have both?

That’s what a warrior is, not some support class that needs others to get the job done, as is so often seen in the game. Whether you prefer a skilled duelist that uses deadly precision and calm to take down your opponent, or brutal overpowering of your foes, arms is a great spec for you.

As a result, my iteration of arms warrior would be as follows:

A tactical blademaster or an unstoppable juggernaut, or any variation between them (Customizable by talent choices).

The idea is to facilitate either of two things: If you like hard-hitting, but slower, playstyle, you can have that. If you like fast paced, momentum filled gameplay, you can also have that, or a number of combinations between the two, whichever you like. These choices are reflected both in utility as well as throughput/damage/rotation changing talents.

A melee spec that can reliably take on other classes and handle him/herself in a battle.

In practise, this means buffing their self-sustain and defensives and counterplay options against other classes. This means also promoting the idea of stances as a key warrior feature, which will allow warriors to adjust to every situation in hand, with unique benefits and effects.

A disruptive oppressor

In the past, warriors had some of the best disruption in the game. That was their niche. While some classes like rogues, mages or hunters had more control oriented abilities and longer CC’s, warriors had shorter, but more frequent CC that allowed them to be very disruptive to their opponents, whether it was interrupting their damage, stopping their casts or drawing the whole attention of the enemy team to yourself.

First in battle, last out of battle.

Warriors are supposed to be leaders and figures around which other classes can rally to, or be boosted by their presence, or rely on their help. This will be reflected with returning utility, such as intervene, banners and shouts. They’re the embodiments of melee combat, and live and die on the battlefield.

Further, since we’re focusing on class design in Shadowlands and beyond, this means that arms warrior, being the tactician (A somewhat of a middleground between fury and prot), can draw some abilities/themes from these specs. One thing is however the same: Rage.

However, rage generation is changed. Instead of being unpredictable and random, rage is now gained from -using abilities-, rather than spending it on use. There are of course still abilities that also drain rage, but the rage gaining mirrors that of MoP arms warrior.

Further, ALL stances are returned baseline (Defensive, battle, berserking), with talent options in place to further customize some of them. Their purpose isn’t so much about swapping to x spec to use y ability, but more akin to adjust to a situation: Are you taking some damage? Best swap to defensive stance. Do you want to deal maximum overall damage and generate resources faster? Use battle stance. Do you want to burst damage for a short while, but also take increased damage? Use berserking stance.

Further, arms mastery has been changed: Instead of causing your abilities to deal bleed damage, increased by mastery, it now increases the damage of most of your abilities by x amount, increased by mastery. Additionally, you now heal 1% of your health for every 10 rage you spend.

Now, lets look at the baseline abilities of (arms) warriors, so you get a general idea of how the class will play out/looks.

3. Baseline ability list

A quick note before I begin, is that if an ability has no explanation to it and has a * on it, that means that the ability will play/work just about as it currently does, or how it has used to work before it has been removed. With that out of the way, lets get to it:

DAMAGE:

Mortal strike*. Now generates 20 rage, instead of consuming rage.

Slam* Costs 20 rage.

Overpower (NYI): Generates 10 rage. Instant, melee range. Overpower the target, dealing high damage to your opponent. Can’t be dodged, blocked, or parried. Overpower is activated by damage dealt by rend, or if your attacks are dodged, blocked, or parried. Overpower can gain a stack only once every 2 seconds.

Rend (NYI): Costs 5 rage, instant, melee range. Rend your targets flesh, dealing x amount of damage and y over the course of 12 seconds. At the end of the duration or once refreshed, deals a burst of damage, based on the duration of the bleed.

Thunderclap (NYI): Costs 10 rage, instant. 6 second cooldown. Slam the ground, causing a blast of nature damage that deals x amount of damage to all enemies around you. Spreads your rend bleed effect to all nearby enemies, if one of them is affected by rend.

Cleave (NYI): Costs 30 rage, instant. Cleave targets in cone in front of you, dealing x amount of damage. Damage dealt increased by y amount if the target is bleeding.

Execute (NYI): Costs 20 - 40 rage, instant, melee range. Target must be below 20% health. Attempt to finish off a foe, dealing x amount of damage, based on the rage spent. If execute fails to kill the target, increases the damage of your next mortal strike by y amount, stacking up to 2 times, and refunds half the rage used.

Victory rush*

Bladestorm*. Now generates 5 rage each time it deals damage.

Hamstring* No longer on global cooldown.

Mastery: Glorious melee: The damage of your rage generating and consuming abilities is now increased by x amount (increased by mastery). Every 10 rage you spend heals you for 1% of your maximum health.

Deep wounds (passive). Critical hits with your melee attacks cause the target to bleed for x amount of the damage dealt for 6 seconds. This effect stacks.

Heroic throw*

COOLDOWNS:

Sweeping strikes (NYI): Cooldown 30 seconds, lasts 10 seconds. Off the global cooldown, no cost. Causes your melee attacks to also strike two additional targets near your target for 70% of the damage.

Berserking stance (NYI): Enter a berserking stance, increasing your damage by 20% and the rage generation of your abilities by 50%. Lasts 12 seconds. During this time, you take 10% more damage. Swapping to a different stance cancels the effect. Cooldown 90 seconds. Shares a 6 second cooldown between other stances.

Defensive stance (NYI): Enter a defensive stance, reducing the damage you take by 30% and the damage you deal by 20%. While in defensive stance, you generate rage from being damaged. Shares a 6 second cooldown between other stances.

Battle stance (NYI): Enter a well-rounded combat stance, increasing your rage generation from abilities by 50% and the damage you deal by 5%.

MISC:

Battle shout (NYI): 10 second cooldown, no cost, instant. Prepare for battle, increasing your and your party’s strength by 10%.

Commanding shout (NYI): 10 second cooldown, no cost, instant. Command your party, increasing your and their stamina by 10%. Lasts 60 minutes. Only one shot per warrior can be active at a time.

Weapon master (NYI): Adjust your weapon according to the need. No cost, 3 second cast.

• Crushing blows: Your melee attacks reduce the armour of your target by 5% for 6 seconds, stacking up to 5 times.
• Reaching blows: Your melee attacks can now hit targets up to 6 yards away.
• Sharpen blade: Increases the healing reduction of your mortal strike by 5%.

UTILITY:

Charge: (NYI) Instant cast, 20 second cooldown, 5 - 25 yard range. Generates 15 rage. Charge at your opponent, knocking them down for 1,5 seconds and slowing them by 50% for 6 seconds.

Heroic leap*

Throwdown: (NYI) Instant cast, 30 second cooldown, melee range. Knock your opponent down, stunning them for 4 seconds.

Spell reflect: (NYI). Instant cast, 30 second cooldown. Rise your shield, reflecting all single target spells cast on you back to their caster for 3 seconds.

Pummel*

Rallying cry*

Shattering throw*

Die by the sword* Cooldown reduced to 1,5 minutes.

Disarm*

Shield block:(NYI): Requires defensive stance. 15 second cooldown, costs 10 rage. Rise your shield, blocking all incoming melee and ranged attacks.

Intimidating shout*

Mocking banner (NYI) Instant, no cost: Taunts all enemies to attack you within 20 yards. 2 minute cooldown.

4. Talents

The talents of arms warriors are supposed to facilitate all the important aspects of the class, rather than forcing choices like stun vs self-heal. Instead, all the rows are now a choice in one area of your class, e.g. mobility, self-healing, defensive and so on. This’d also be the case for all classes, with some classes obviously having better than others to promote class diversity and fantasy. Either way, here we are.

Row 1: Mobility

Talent 1: Bull rush (NYI). Passive. Reduces the cooldown of your charge to 12 seconds.

Talent 2: Dragon charge*

Talent 3: Intervene (NYI). Cooldown 20 seconds. No cost. Rush to your targeted ally’s rescue, intercepting all the incoming attacks they take for 3 seconds. Clears all snares and roots on use. Can be used on banners.

Row 2: Sustain/defensive

Talent 1: Blade ward (NYI). Instant cast, 20 second cooldown, no cost. Ward off attacks for the next 3 seconds, deflecting all incoming melee attacks and projectiles. Cooldown reduced for each attack warded, up to 5 seconds.

Talent 2: Second wind (NYI). Passive. When below 50% of your HP, the healing from your mastery is increased by 300%.

Talent 3: Shield barrier (NYI). Replaces shield block. No cooldown. Costs 20 rage. Block with your shield, absorbing the next x damage for 5 seconds. This effect stacks up to 3 times.

Row 3: Utility

Talent 1: Storm bolt* Replaces Throwdown.

Talent 2: Shockwave*

Talent 3: Intimidating presence. Passive. The cooldown of your intimidating shout is reduced by 50%, and enemies broken out of the fear are now rooted for the duration that remained when the fear was removed. Damage taken can break the effect.

Row 4: Quality of Life

Talent 1: Momentum. Passive. Your overpower increases your haste by 3% for 6 seconds, stacking up to 5 times.

Talent 2: Hack & slash. Slam/heroic strike reduces the cooldown of your Mortal strike by 1 second.

Talent 3: Thrill of battle. The rage gained from charging is doubled, and the first mortal strike you use within 6 seconds of charging generates double the rage.

Row 5: AOE damage

Talent 1: Overlord’s legacy. Passive. Each time you cleave, its rage cost is reduced by 5 for 6 seconds, stacking up to 5 times.

Talent 2: Gathering storm. Your bladestorm’s duration is increased by 0,2 seconds each time it deals damage to an enemy.

Talent 3: Colossus smash (NYI). Passive. The damage and radius of your thunderclap is increased by x amount.

Row 6: Damage boost

Talent 1: Sudden death*

Talent 2: Avatar* Replaces Berserking stance. Can be used in any stance.

Talent 3: Trauma: After using mortal strike, causes your next slam/heroic strike to be a guaranteed critical strike.

Row 7: Rotation/gameplay changer

Talent 1: Anger management. Passive. The cooldown of your Bladestorm and Berserking stance/Avatar is reduced by 1 second each time you spend 10 rage.

Talent 2: Heroic strike. (NYI). Replaces slam. Costs 30 rage. Melee range, instant cast. Strike your target viciously for x damage.

Talent 3: Meteor strike. (NYI). Instant cast, no cost, 1-minute cooldown. 15-yard range. Leap into air and crash down onto your opponent, dealing x amount of damage to your opponent and knocking back hostile targets around them within a 6-yard radius. The impact ruptures slabs of ground around the target, creating impassable and obscuring terrain for 5 seconds.

5. Rotation examples (Aoe + Single target/execute)
   These examples are done with the assumption of no talents selected, to make the idea simple.

Single target:

• Charge
• Mortal strike
• Overpower
• Rend
• Overpower
• Slam

Multi-target (+2 targets)

• Charge
• Rend
• Sweeping strikes
• Mortal strike
• Thunderclap
• Overpower
• Cleave

(Bladestorm if large amount of targets)

Execute phase:

• Charge on cooldown
• Mortal strike
• Execute
• Execute
• Mortal strike

Repeat.

6. Conclusions

These ideas have attempted to collect what people have liked about the warrior class over the years, while also introducing new ideas. I am still not 100% satisfied with my talents, so I look forward to your feedback eagerly. However, I remind you once more, in an ideal world if these ideas went through, I’d also like the other classes to get new/old stuff back, not just warriors.

[Arcana-earthen-ring (Arcana)]

Call Rage something other than Rage as when people hear a word they also subconsciously hear the culturally associated terms of it and Rage is something emotional. Already there it goes against the class fantasy of

A tactical blademaster…

I would call it Momentum instead. It works exactly like Rage, it just has a more fitting name. This will also help define the rest of the abilities of the spec to fit this theme.

…or an unstoppable juggernaut…

This is more Fury. A juggernaut is, in the context of a living being, emotions channeled into an unstoppable rage incarnate. There’s nothing tactical or rational about a juggernaut. In the context of a living being, it’s going forward until something stops you by you being unable to move it.

Think of Cain Marco. Rational and tactical are the last things that come up when you have to describe his alter ego the Juggernaut. Instead, it’s rage and raw power that are at the forefront.

Arms can only have one class fantasy as long as Fury exist and have to the opposite of Fury (and it’s in the names what they’re about Arms vs. Fury). This is the same error in design philosophy that has lead to the design of Arms where it’s neither fish nor fowl.

[Atahalni-argent-dawn (Atahalni)]

Call Rage something other than Rage as when people hear a word they also subconsciously hear the culturally associated terms of it and Rage is something emotional. Already there it goes against the class fantasy of

You can have emotions, even if you are tactical. Fury warriors let that rage recklessly loose, while arms has hones it.

• rage has been a core mechanic of the spec since vanilla. It’s part of the class, I don’t see a reason to change its name for semantics sake.

This is more Fury.

Arguably no. Having chunky, heavy hitting attacks has -always- been associated with arms (and while I personally prefer a more momentum filled spec, I recognize what a lot of people like.

Again, you can be a juggernaut and still be tactical. Further, as I argued, I prefer function over form.

Arms can only have one class fantasy as long as Fury exist and have to the opposite of Fury (and it’s in the names what they’re about Arms vs. Fury). This is the same error in design philosophy that has lead to the design of Arms where it’s neither fish nor fowl.

Hard disagree. My idea is to bring sll the specs closer toward one another (as they were really till MoP), which was realky the golden age for warriors. Having shared abilities and utility is what makes -warrior- great, not doubling down on spec fantasy, which killed arms from Legion forward.

[Arcana-earthen-ring (Arcana)]

You can have emotions, even if you are tactical.

Yes, you can, and that’s called being rational. The name Rage implies being lost to your emotions.

• rage has been a core mechanic of the spec since vanilla. It’s part of the class, I don’t see a reason to change its name for semantics sake.

It would be a change for narrative’s sake which would then make the design of the spec more coherent a there’s a guiding narrative line to follow.

Boomkins, etc all used Mana until it was changed to their own form of resource that drastically changed how the spec was played. Maelstrom, Insanity, etc are effectively the same mechanic with a different name because that name fits the narrative of the spec.

Arguably no. Having chunky, heavy hitting attacks has -always- been associated with arms (and while I personally prefer a more momentum filled spec, I recognize what a lot of people like.

Again, you can be a juggernaut and still be tactical. Further, as I argued, I prefer function over form.

Having chunky hits where you take your time to find the weakness of your opponent is tactical rahter than emotion filled. And juggernaut is a word associated with emotion. This is one of the definitions of juggernaut from Miriam-Webster:

• a massive inexorable force, campaign, movement, or object that crushes whatever is in its path
  Which is emotional. You crush things that are unworthy to stand in your way. Unworthy is an emotion as the definition is subjective and the meaning is dependent on the one who states it.

Hard disagree. My idea is to bring sll the specs closer toward one another (as they were really till MoP), which was realky the golden age for warriors. Having shared abilities and utility is what makes -warrior- great, not doubling down on spec fantasy, which killed arms from Legion forward.

You’re welcome to disagree, there’s nothing peer-reviewed that supports your stance though. You also have it wrong. Shared utility aspects are something that’s inherently class-related instead of spec-related. Specs should further specialise you, thus making you go deeper into one aspect.

And you thinking that MoP was the golden age for Warriors makes me question how long you’re played this class for. Arms and Fury were at their best in WotLK as both were viable (Arms just took more work to learn). MoP started the decline as Arms was no longer mechanically viable for PvE. If anything Blizzard should double down even harder on the spec-fantasy of Warriors than they have, Bringing them closer together just makes them a mass of grey. And nothing is more unappealing to people than grey, they want something distinct.

[Yxxe-stormreaver]

I like this post alot, its filled with ideas hard work and passion, its a shame it never be seen by devs that cares. But my hat off to you sir for taking your time and sharing this with us.

[Atahalni-argent-dawn (Atahalni)]

The name Rage implies being lost to your emotions.

It doesn’t.

Boomkins, etc all used Mana until it was changed to their own form of resource that drastically changed how the spec was played. Maelstrom, Insanity, etc are effectively the same mechanic with a different name because that name fits the narrative of the spec.

Maelstrom insanity and astral power are not remotely the same thing.

As said, rage has always been part of the narrative of the spec. No point changing it since the function is the exact same.

Having chunky hits where you take your time to find the weakness of your opponent is tactical rahter than emotion filled

Yeah we all saw how much people liked to have a window of opportunity in legion didnt we.

You don’t need to find weakness, you can just hit with overwhelming strength or precision- As overpower implies, for one.

And juggernaut is a word associated with emotion. This is one of the definitions of juggernaut from Miriam-Webster:

I don’t much care what your definition is because characters that are nothing like that have also been described as juggernauts. You want warrior to be about x thing, I want it to be about y thing, so hard pass there.

You’re welcome to disagree, there’s nothing peer-reviewed that supports your stance though. You also have it wrong. Shared utility aspects are something that’s inherently class-related instead of spec-related. Specs should further specialise you, thus making you go deeper into one aspect.

Have you been ignoring the last four developer interviews? The overwhelming, massive feedback people have given is that spec fantasy has ruined the classes. That is why they are bringing back -class- fantasy in shadowlands. Now you can scream and shout and disagree but I was right, as I predicted. Legion and arms warrior are hollow attempts to go into spec fantasy of arms, where the spec was far more healthier pre-said expansions.

Specs are supposed to be just that. Some part of your class you specialize into. Arms specializes in 2 handed weapons, prot specializes in 2x weapons, prot in sworf and board.

You don’t magically just forget the rest of your abilities and kit because you swapped a spec. The evidence regarding class design > spec design is overwhelmingly on my side.

And nothing is more unappealing to people than grey, they want something distinct.

Yeah well you are factually wrong. The n1 complaint people have had about all the classes is their depth of spec design, because that has sacrificed their class identity.

Its not an opinion. Its a fact.

Granted, I write my opinion more from the PoV of pvp than pve, but I have played the class since BC, so our preferences may differ but quite frankly I never encountered the problems you describe.

[Zeji-shazzrah]

I love the sound of all this, especially the meteor strike and weapon master skills

I just want to play a blademaster and this fills me with happiness

also Arcana is just clutching at straws to disagree with you, your redesign is much better

[Atahalni-argent-dawn (Atahalni)]

Thank you. As said, I am a bit iffy on some of the ideas still (e.g. I feel some of the talents should be more interesting), but I always try to make the spec functional above all else.

[Zeji-shazzrah]

yeah but what you have proposed so far is awesome, Im quite new to warrior and this is what I expected from Arms before I played but I was let down, hard.

Even the little things like Avatar replacing berserker stance is something I like to see, because it feels like youre empowering a current skill you use, rather than just adding another button ontop, and im also a sucker for the feeling of buffing yourself up to be unstoppable force in video games, like tryndamere in league of legends

[Arcana-earthen-ring (Arcana)]

It doesn’t.

Miriam-Webster again

rage [noun]

\ ˈrāj \

Definition of rage

(Entry 1 of 2)

1a : violent and uncontrolled anger

b : a fit of violent wrath

carchaic : INSANITY

2 : violent action (as of wind or sea)

3 : an intense feeling : PASSION

4 : a fad pursued with intense enthusiasm “was all the rage.”

That seems awfully emotional to me and those who write down the definitions of what words are.

Maelstrom insanity and astral power are not remotely the same thing.

As said, rage has always been part of the narrative of the spec. No point changing it since the function is the exact same.

They are mechanically exactly the same thing. You generate it by using abilities and then spend it on other abilities. They just have names that fit the spec as Maelstrom would make no narrative sense for Shadow Priests to have.

You don’t need to find weakness, you can just hit with overwhelming strength or precision- As overpower implies, for one.

That’s emotional. Rational is making the most out of the hit you get.

I don’t much care what your definition is

This is the definition of the REST OF THE WORLD. You trying to redefine what something means is a signifier of arrogance.

The overwhelming, massive feedback people have given is that spec fantasy has ruined the classes.

No, I’m ignoring the words people use instead of the sentiments behind those words. People can only see the outcomes of actions and define what they mean based on the preceding actions that they can see.

There’s nothing wrong with going by the class- or spec-fantasy. What Blizzard did wrong was that they removed some things that add little mechanical impact in the large scheme of things and were extremely important for the narrative identity and overall usefulness for the spec. In the case of Arms removing Shattering Throw removed their unique aspect and made the spec essentially useless since they no longer had anything they uniquely could bring to the table.

Yeah well you are factually wrong. The n1 complaint people have had about all the classes is their depth of spec design, because that has sacrificed their class identity.

See above. The problem is that things right now are rather grey. The cause is the removal of some things that gave certain classes a unique narrative and the mechanics derived thereof.

Granted, I write my opinion more from the PoV of pvp than pve, but I have played the class since BC, so our preferences may differ but quite frankly I never encountered the problems you describe.

That’s great, I’ve played since Vanilla when the optimal tanking spec was 0/30/11.

And you have encountered what I describe you just interpret it differently since those conclusions require deep reflection based on several advanced subjects that I learned via my education. 10 years ago I would have agreed with you and now I know more.

Is this impressive? Yes, no doubt about it. Does it miss the mark when it comes to the reasons for something? Yes.

And I see that you are including some of the same things that I have in my proposal. Namely the self-healing aspect. Since Mastery has no effect on it then it should be removed from Mastery and become it’s own ability named in a way that reinforces the narrative of the spec.

[Atahalni-argent-dawn (Atahalni)]

That seems awfully emotional to me and those who write down the definitions of what words are.

Yes, as I said, something like a “fit of violent wrath” doesn’t mean you can’t control it.

Your very own definition says it, so thanks for bringing it up.

They are mechanically exactly the same thing. You generate it by using abilities and then spend it on other abilities. They just have names that fit the spec as Maelstrom would make no narrative sense for Shadow Priests to have.

Not true at all. Insanity ramps up faster the longer you stay in voidform (something neither if the two do) while maelstrom is gained, pooled and used, and astral power is generated and then used appropriately.

If you wanna dumb it down to “x resource is generated and spent to do y things” then literally every single resource in the game is like that- including mana. Which defeats the whole point of the argument.

That’s emotional. Rational is making the most out of the hit you get.

No, you just overpower your opponent. In my iteration overpower doesn’t wven cost any rage so whether it is done out of emotion or not is ambiguous to begin with.

This is the definition of the REST OF THE WORLD. You trying to redefine what something means is a signifier of arrogance.

The fact that the term is used so ambiguously by people to describe completely different characters is at odds with your argument.

No, I’m ignoring the words people use instead of the sentiments behind those words.

ah yes, the old and gold “you think you do, but you don’t” argument.

Look, if most of the playerbase hates the spec fantasy desig of Blizzard, then it is by definition bad. The evidence is crystal clear on this.

In the case of Arms removing Shattering Throw removed their unique aspect and made the spec essentially useless since they no longer had anything they uniquely could bring to the table.

Arms suffers from far more fundamental problems than just shattering throw., hence the comprehensive list of abilities and mechanics.

that I learned via my education.

You have a PHD in warrior class design? Sign me up, which university gives that?

Thanks but I am not buying the argument that you can do the thinking for me- As the rest of the responses in this thread show.

Is this impressive? Yes, no doubt about it. Does it miss the mark when it comes to the reasons for something? Yes.

The only argument you have brought up has been that the fantasy is wrong- which, in the grsnd scheme of things, is very ambiguous.

You haven’t given any other concrete feedback what you’d change, which is why your point really is, as said, grasping on straws.

Since Mastery has no effect on it then it should be removed from Mastery and become it’s own ability named in a way that reinforces the narrative of the spec.

Have you seen survival hunter mastery by any chance?

Further, do you think that some of the ideas (e.g. self healing) are only exclusive to you and you own the ideas lol? I hadn’t even heard of you save for the mastery argument we had, but I can tell you, and you can indeed read ir from the OP, that my plan isn’t so much to re-imagine arms warriors. I want to bring back popular and liked mechanics that fit the current game design of wow.

The ideas aren’t unique to you I’m afraid.

[Arcana-earthen-ring (Arcana)]

Yes, as I said, something like a “fit of violent wrath” doesn’t mean you can’t control it.

Yes, it does. It literally does. If you’re ever in a court for a violent crime and it’s pretty clear that you did it then your legal counsel will argue that it was a crime of affect. Violence with intent is classified as malice. That is what violence means in the straight-up sense of the word, that your emotions control your action.

Not true at all. Insanity ramps up faster the longer you stay in voidform (something neither if the two do) while maelstrom is gained, pooled and used, and astral power is generated and then used appropriately.

It’s also used faster than it can be generated which is a function of the resource being tied to the narrative feel to avoid a game mechanic where it’s possible to just camp out in Void Form.

If you wanna dumb it down to “x resource is generated and spent to do y things” then literally every single resource in the game is like that- including mana. Which defeats the whole point of the argument.

There’s no damage ability that generates mana when used that you can then use on other abilities. I’ve some alts that uses mana and the only class that even come close to that description are Warlocks and they convert health to mana and they can then drain that health from a target if they want.

No, you just overpower your opponent. In my iteration overpower doesn’t wven cost any rage so whether it is done out of emotion or not is ambiguous to begin with.

You can overpower someone with rational intent. The moment you say “juggernaut” the context becomes emotional since juggernaut means emotional.

The fact that the term is used so ambiguously by people to describe completely different characters is at odds with your argument.

There’s nothing ambiguous about it. Just because a definition has multiple uses in no way makes it vague. That’s what context are for. The context decide what version of the definition to use. We understand the world through narratives and the context in the narrative decides how the narrative is to be understood and interpreted. That’s how language works.

ah yes, the old and gold “you think you do, but you don’t” argument.

That incredibly patronising, a strawman, and in no way what I said. Humans are emotional being before we’re rational ones. A person that expresses a bigoted belief will believe themselves fully justified in that belief because of whatever reasons they decide. The onlookers can tell that person’s behaviour is bigoted.

You act emotionally here and go to accusing me of patronising immediately instead of doing the rational work of reading what I wrote and then deciding if I wrote what you thought.

There are entire textbooks written about the reason people think and behave the way they do. This in no way changes that they do believe what they do believe. It’s mechanically often a subconscious rationalisation of their emotional beliefs.

Arms suffers from far more fundamental problems than just shattering throw., hence the comprehensive list of abilities and mechanics.

That we agree on. The removal of Shattering Throw removed their unique mechanic and the unique thing that Warriors bring to the party, which was my argument, you moved the goalposts by bringing up something else.

You have a PHD in warrior class design? Sign me up, which university gives that?

Nope. I have a UCBA in occupational therapy which, amongst other things gives a deep understanding of how narratives work and how people become engaged in something.

The only argument you have brought up has been that the fantasy is wrong- which, in the grsnd scheme of things, is very ambiguous.

The fantasy is everything as the fantasy creates the narrative and your suggestions mostly deal with the fantasy, or narrative, that you imagine in your head instead of the one there actually is. Granted the one that is and the finished product have a heavy discrepancy.

Have you seen survival hunter mastery by any chance?

Nope, because my own Hunter has only touched BM and MM since I’ve little interest in survival. However, from what you say, it’s implied that it’s nested inside the mastery which is narratively wrong and makes no sense.

Further, do you think that some of the ideas (e.g. self healing) are only exclusive to you and you own the ideas lol? I hadn’t even heard of you save for the mastery argument we had, but I can tell you, and you can indeed read ir from the OP, that my plan isn’t so much to re-imagine arms warriors. I want to bring back popular and liked mechanics that fit the current game design of wow.

Nope, and I never said it was, I just said that it was like my idea which is basically the effect of Mannaroth’s Bloodied Mannacles given as a class mechanic to both Arms and Prot and adjusted in effectivity accordingly.

that my plan isn’t so much to re-imagine arms warriors. I want to bring back popular and liked mechanics that fit the current game design of wow.

Think bigger, instead of just copying steal things, make them your own. And the popular mechanics while good for the class was bad for the game and removed for a reason. You said earlier where I got my PHD in Warrior Class design. Let me ask you, where have you gotten yours? On what basis do you think you’re capable of making a design of Warriors when the designers of the game themselves fail?

You’re on the right track to fixing the problems that Arms have and by recycling things that were removed you’re still far off.

[Willymonka-dunemaul]

I think arms is in a pretty good spot right now, and there is no need for a major overhaul imo. It feels rewarding and relatively smooth to play. I don’t think various stances is the way to go, especially not Berserker Stance. Those days are over

[Atahalni-argent-dawn (Atahalni)]

Yes, it does. It literally does. If you’re ever in a court for a violent crime and it’s pretty clear that you did it then your legal counsel will argue that it was a crime of affect. Violence with intent is classified as malice. That is what violence means in the straight-up sense of the word, that your emotions control your action.

Hate to break this to you but you can be violent without being emotional.

Again, nowhere in the definition does it state that rage can’t be controlled. You can.

There’s no damage ability that generates mana when used that you can then use on other abilities.

You can use evocation to gain mana which you can consequently use to do different things. This is the exact same process for runic power etc.

Again, you were the one who made this argument. Not me.

You can overpower someone with rational intent. The moment you say “juggernaut” the context becomes emotional since juggernaut means emotional.

The two are not mutually exclusive lol, what is this logic?

There’s nothing ambiguous about it. Just because a definition has multiple uses in no way makes it vague. That’s what context are for. The context decide what version of the definition to use. We understand the world through narratives and the context in the narrative decides how the narrative is to be understood and interpreted. That’s how language works.

Or, you know, there exists multiple definitions for the same word- Not to mention that the original text you cited gived it very ambigious use to begin with.

I’m sorry but your attempt to pummel me with a barrage of linquistics about what context a word is appropriate to use is not working when the term itself has evolved and is used ambiguously to iterate completely different characters.

That incredibly patronising, a strawman, and in no way what I said.

Yes it is lol. Unlike you, I have all of your posts to peove a point, whereas your strawman arguments are based around ambiguity.

A more appropriate term either case would have been ad hoc, which it frankly speaking was, not that you seem to know the difference.

Humans are emotional being before we’re rational ones. A person that expresses a bigoted belief will believe themselves fully justified in that belief because of whatever reasons they decide. The onlookers can tell that person’s behaviour is bigoted.

This is self irony or satire, surely?

I might be bigoted or not, but I am perfectly capable of defending my own point without questioning how intelligent or rational you are.

You act emotionally here and go to accusing me of patronising immediately instead of doing the rational work of reading what I wrote and then deciding if I wrote what you thought.

This has got to be irony.

Throughout your post, including this part, you keep telling me that I am being emotional, I am thinking wrong, my thoughts are biased or something else- All based on your judgement.

Surely you, as the supposed rational person, can see the irony here? Somehow all my responses and remarks I give you are emotional, while only one of us has been constantly berating the other of getting terms incorrect while telling they know it all (despite refuting the fact that the terms themselves are ambiguous).

There are entire textbooks written about the reason people think and behave the way they do. This in no way changes that they do believe what they do believe. It’s mechanically often a subconscious rationalisation of their emotional beliefs.

Further I to this date do not understand what does this psychological behavior essay have to do with the argument- Which, by the way, I am still waiting for.

That we agree on. The removal of Shattering Throw removed their unique mechanic and the unique thing that Warriors bring to the party, which was my argument, you moved the goalposts by bringing up something else.

I never brought that point up so I have no idea what you’re on about, ubless you are referring to some part of the OP.

Nope. I have a UCBA in occupational therapy which, amongst other things gives a deep understanding of how narratives work and how people become engaged in something.

Ok but how does having UCBA have anything to do with warrior class design and why does it make your argument any better lol.

The fantasy is everything as the fantasy creates the narrative and your suggestions mostly deal with the fantasy, or narrative, that you imagine in your head instead of the one there actually is

Big disagree. Function over form.

They had the clearest ideas for specs since vanilla during Legion which only served to ruin the specs, as the feedback has shown. Thing is, when you want a clear narratove to guide EVERYTHING in class design, it quickly cages up the ideas from practical functionality. Having a strong spec narrative =/= having a good class/spec.

Narrative is good to have as a guideline- Not as something that locks you down on choices. Your suggestion, while ok on the surface, doesn’t for example look into aoe. It doesn’t promote different playstyles. It doesn’t give players any choice (granted there’s always going to be cookie cutters) and it is not detailed enough so I can’t comment on the whole suggestion.

However, from what you say, it’s implied that it’s nested inside the mastery which is narratively wrong and makes no sense.

Their mastery is almost identical to the mastery I proposed- Only that it heals hunters every 5 seconds or so for x amount (I think 3 or 4%?), but it isn’t increased by mastery.

Either way it proves a point. Wouldn’t matter if it was a separate passive or not, the impact would be the exact same. That’s grasping for straws, word on word.

Think bigger, instead of just copying steal things, make them your own.

I have brought several of my own thoughts too, I just am not arrogant enough to think that reinventing the wheel for the 10th time in row is gonna be different.

The reality is that the class has had solid gameplay and abilities in the past. There’s the whole reason why people want them back. If it works, don’t change it.

That’s not to say you don’t need to innovate and try new things- I have done that too. But the past is a good thing to learn from, and I have learned that change for changes sake has ruined this class, not improved it.

And the popular mechanics while good for the class was bad for the game and removed for a reason.

Such as? If they were such good reasons, why are they backtracking on their decisions now?

You said earlier where I got my PHD in Warrior Class design. Let me ask you, where have you gotten yours?

I don’t. But I never claimed that I had such PHD. You were claiming you had some extra knowledge but as it turns out you are just a layman in classdesign as we all here are.

On what basis do you think you’re capable of making a design of Warriors when the designers of the game themselves fail?

By arguing for the changes and proving my point, obviously.

Doesn’t mean I (or you) wont get it wrong either but if you can’t give a solid argument against the changes then that proves the point.

You’re on the right track to fixing the problems that Arms have and by recycling things that were removed you’re still far off.

Well, only one of us has been able to actually go into details about the class design, so considering I dont even have your whataboutism PHD, I consider I am doing really well.

I could try and say the same about you but as said, your suggestion doesn’t being anything concrete to the table.

[Arcana-earthen-ring (Arcana)]

Hate to break this to you but you can be violent without being emotional.

Again, nowhere in the definition does it state that rage can’t be controlled. You can.

I know this. In that case you act with maliscious intent, the last thing you are like is like a juggernaut. Rage is by definiton emotional. That you can control it just turns it from being emotional to be maliscious. As evidenced in children that has never learned the difference between good and bad behaviour.

You can use evocation to gain mana which you can consequently use to do different things. This is the exact same process for runic power etc.

Oh, I see. You go for being technically correct again. In that case grats you win, you’re the superior being. I hope this makes you happy.

You should reflect on your arrogant and superior/inferior beliefs and juist accept that it’s impossible to know everything. Yet in the so-called fuzzy fields everyone is an expert since they’re humans themselves.

Yeah, that in no way disregards the 3½ years of time I used to learn this stuff /s

This behaviour is the type of behaviour person who would tell an engineer that they were wrong when they said the structural integrity of something was inadequate if they used words and concepts that you were unable to understand.

[Atahalni-argent-dawn (Atahalni)]

I know this. In that case you act with maliscious intent, the last thing you are like is like a juggernaut. Rage is by definiton emotional. That you can control it just turns it from being emotional to be maliscious. As evidenced in children that has never learned the difference between good and bad behaviour.

So what exactly are you disagreeing with me about again?

Turns out rage can be a core warrior mechanic for warriors, since they can control it. Check.
Turns out that juggernaut fits (as per your own admission) both uncontrollable (how the hell do you een measure that?) and controlled behaviour. Check.

As said, it’s grasping on straws for no point.

Oh, I see. You go for being technically correct again. In that case grats you win, you’re the superior being. I hope this makes you happy.

Well I mean it beats being technically wrong all the time so thanks, yeah.

If you can’t even get mechanics right, how do you think you can get the narrative right?

You should reflect on your arrogant and superior/inferior beliefs and juist accept that it’s impossible to know everything.

Again, this coming from you, the man/woman/thing who tells me and others that they don’t know what they are talking about and are wrong and that it is withing their best interests to let you do the thinking, is truly the peak of irony.

I have invited you, from the start, to argue against the function of the class- Which, to this date, remains obscured.

Yeah, that in no way disregards the 3½ years of time I used to learn this stuff /s

But you admitted that you didn’t get a PHD in warrior class design? I’m about to graduate as a master of marketing from a trade school, but that doesn’t mean that my opinion is somehow heavier on an unrelated topic.

If you can’t argue for your case and just resort to “I have x background in the field”, it’s not the other side that needs to change. Reaching to authority is a bad and weak argument, which you as an educated person should know.

This behaviour is the type of behaviour person who would tell an engineer that they were wrong when they said the structural integrity of something was inadequate if they used words and concepts that you were unable to understand.

No, this is the equilevant of me telling somebody who’s done e.g. gender studies that their background in that field of area doesn’t have anything to do with throwing around ideas about how to design video game characters lol.

Further, have you considered the fact that maybe I think you could be just lying? After all, it’d be a real gold card if I could just enter any argument and tell “i’m an expert in x” and just finish it there.

If you are so smart, as you seem to think you are, you wouldn’t have any problem arguing against my suggestion from a mechanical standpoint- Yet here you are, failing to do so.

I’ll let everyone decide for themselves which is more credible, thanks.

[Arcana-earthen-ring (Arcana)]

Again, this coming from you, the man/woman/thing who tells me and others that they don’t know what they are talking about and are wrong and that it is withing their best interests to let you do the thinking, is truly the peak of irony.

Yeah. I was correct as I do find your beliefs a waste of time as I never said this, indicated this or implied this and yet you straw-manned me to make a point against an imaginary person so you sound awesome.

Look up MoHO as an image, look at the first picture and explain to me how to interpret it.

And as for my education, you already ignored my explanation in order to make more strawmen. It would do you good to admit that you posted this just to be praised because praise feels good, and instead of reflecting on the honest criticism you got you decided to attack it. You’ll most likely say that nothing I said had any value as a criticism because whatever justification you think up.

I’ve seen this type of behaviour before. I use a roller and someone decided that I needed a door slowed down, so they did, I was rather unhappy as it made things more difficult. They got really angry when I criticised them instead of praising them as they expected.

This is is exactly the same and in your mind, your anger is justifiable as I clearæly know nothing about what I talk about, from what you want to see that is.

And yeah, I did say I was finished with this debate, however, this level of ignorance made me engage again despite my own best intentions. I loathe being made into straw so other people can look good by telling others that the straw me has silly opinions.

Mature a bit and stop being so dishonest in your argumentation since it’s possible to be honest though it takes “admitting weakness” which is a cultural taboo, especially if you’re male then you have to be strong and superior because men are the strong sex.

[Atahalni-argent-dawn (Atahalni)]

Yeah. I was correct as I do find your beliefs a waste of time as I never said this, indicated this or implied this and yet you straw-manned me to make a point against an imaginary person so you sound awesome.

…I never rose the points, you did. I just pointed out their absurdity and when you found yourself trapped by it, you congratulated me for being right (thanks again).

Look up MoHO as an image, look at the first picture and explain to me how to interpret it.

It looks like the title of my arms warrior thread.

And as for my education, you already ignored my explanation in order to make more strawmen.

I didn’t ignore your explanation, I disagreed with it. Surely somebody of your stature would know the difference.

It would do you good to admit that you posted this just to be praised because praise feels good, and instead of reflecting on the honest criticism you got you decided to attack it.

You can take a look at the other thread I made for shadow priest that I also linked in this OP- I seem to have been perfectly capable of having a rational discourse about the mechanics and functionality of the class there, what indicates that I can’t do that there?

Sure it’s nice if people agree with your PoV (that means you’ve done at least done something correct), but as I admitted myself, I’d like to make some of my talent choices more interesting, even if they make the class functional and fun (which, is paramount to me).

The only one who’s absent with reflection is you- As I still, to this date, am awaiting for your response on the actual class design choices I made, rather than the straws you keep grasping on (which, you by the way agreed upon earlier on).

Also I once more offer you advice. Strawman argument and Ad Hoc aren’t the same thing.

You’ll most likely say that nothing I said had any value as a criticism because whatever justification you think up.

Your post have intrinsic value to them, hence I bother answering to them. I don’t particularly value the criticism, because as per your own admission, I was right about it in the end, and you are still mowing about it for some reason.

I’ve seen this type of behaviour before. I use a roller and someone decided that I needed a door slowed down, so they did, I was rather unhappy as it made things more difficult. They got really angry when I criticised them instead of praising them as they expected.

I’ve no idea how I fit into this metaphor but if you could clarify that that’d be great.

I can however craft a narrative about the course of this discussion while you do that:

I express an opinion about warrior class design. You come into the thread, tell that I am wrong because of an ambiguous reason (which isn’t an objective fact). I comment on this, you tell me I’ve got it wrong and you are educated on the subject (though you later admit you aren’t), and when I call you out for using a bad argument (authority card), you patronize by telling me, and others, that somehow you got it all figured out- To which, I respond by using humour (a proven method) to compare you to J. Allen, who though “You think you do, but you don’t”, and we all saw how well that flew…Which, at mildest, can be interpreted as an ad hoc, but you somehow see it as a strawman.

This is is exactly the same and in your mind, your anger is justifiable as I clearæly know nothing about what I talk about, from what you want to see that is.

I wasn’t aware you’re a telepath, my bad.

For a person that seems to be so vehemently against rage as a game mechanic, you sure seem to be filling it up quickly. Perhaps you are more of a warrior than I am in the end, heh.

And yeah, I did say I was finished with this debate, however, this level of ignorance made me engage again despite my own best intentions.

If you can’t even hold yourself accountable for your own word, then that already brings down your credibility immensely.

You claim to be this amazing interpretator and capable person that can see the truth and we all just dont get it yet you for some reason can’t even hold yourself back from posting back, lol.

Maybe learn to walk before trying to run.

I loathe being made into straw so other people can look good by telling others that the straw me has silly opinions.

I unlock my telepathy skills and peer into your mind

No, it’s way more simple than that. You just hate losing an argument, which is a bit of an achievement itself considering class design from a layman PoV is completely down to preferance, you somehow managed to make it about objective points like language or resource gaining and still somehow managed to lose.

Mature a bit and stop being so dishonest in your argumentation since it’s possible to be honest though it takes “admitting weakness” which is a cultural taboo, especially if you’re male then you have to be strong and superior because men are the strong sex.

I’m not a wall, don’t project on me.

[Yxxe-stormreaver]

Imo its the complete opposite, Arms is the only spec in the game that cant do solo content due to slow dmg and low dmg and worst of all no self sustain. Worst spec in PvE and awful in PvP the only ppl i see do well in arena with warrior are elite players.

[Atahalni-argent-dawn (Atahalni)]

I feel like so many years have passed that a lot of people don’t know what they are missing out on- How great the class used 2 be.