If a tank dies in M+, it's a full wipe usually

Community General Discussion
1

While not an issue I usually run in to, mistakes happen obviously.

Why can the healer die, a DPS die and you are still often able to salvage it but a tank is punished twice? His death and the death of the group.

Maybe a tank talent/baseline with a CD, summons treants/army of the dead/fallen warriors/Niuzao etc if you die as any tank . Would thematically be cool as hell, you die and it summons a small army/special mob to try to protect your party, like you died doing. Make it available for all tanks but with a specific theme, a baseline pseudo cheat death. Make it a 10 minute cooldown. Give the tank the option to either control them or run back if it’s on trash mobs.

Just a short buffer after death to try and finish it. Not every group has CR or maybe the group wasted them already.

I honestly think the lack of cheat death/cheat death trinket for all tanks is a massive oversight. But the mobs summoned would just add flavour to a bad situation

2

The tank is like the dad of a family. A dad is the biggest, strongest, earns the most money, is the most capable of love and usually the most intelligent.

Not being allowed to die is the obligation of the strongest.

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3

Not neceserely.

Kiting works perfect. In my case, only ~30% of the time a tanks death == a wipe.

What usually happens though is that when the tank CRs, or runs back he instantly dies because he is stressed out / out of CDs / badly positioned and gets 1-shot once again. And THEN its a wipe. :smiley:

So dont forget: Before you AoE taunt, wall up to prevent 1-shots.

4

thanks to the 15s / death penalty.

2 Likes
5

I would have more prefered a cheat death trinket available (and not only obtainable in the raid).

Problem occurs because there are too many tankbusters. Also in trash. When you find out a mob does 3M damage that leaves a debuff for extra damage taken with an ability and another 3M 1 sec after that ability, and you put 2 of those mobs in 1 trashpack, you find out you got in 3 seconds time 12+M damage. Which goes completely through Ironfur.
It sounds like a problem to me.

6

While i agree, it’s lopsided. If the tank dies, everyone dies.

Everyone should be completely equal.

7

We can argue numbers, but there should always be a cheat death.

Stonescales even does wonders for your mental. Yes dying as tank is extremely stressful. You’ve just put your party in a horrific situation.

Plenty of mobs have huge range on their abilities and can’t be kited and good luck kiting the boss. :joy:

Yeah i agree even a cheat death trinket would be amazing. Just have a stonescale equivalent in M+ each season. Just the other idea would be more interesting.

As tank you need to make an educated death whether X mit will be enough. It’s not like we know an exact figure. Cheat death would let you feel it out more

8

For sure. ALL tanks should have a baseline cheat death mechanic IMO. Forget trinkets.

Kinda like healers: We all have some way of regenerating mana in combat. Its part of the deal. Same case with tanks.

I help the tank a ton by kicking those mobs so they walk to melee. Happens a lot, and tanks appreciate what I do. Makes their life easier.

And sometimes DDs do it too. Which is nice.

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9

Yeah, 100% agree. You should be allowed to make a mistake that gets you killed once every 10 minutes. I’m not bothered where it comes from, but if you have baseline cheat death then even your new toons/newer undergeared tanks have that extra safety.

(may attract more tank players also, less anxiety maybe?)

10

Anxiety has nothing to do with the tank shortage.

It has to do with the roll itself. A successful tank is a tank in which “nothing exiting happens” in a whole M+ run. Because “something exiting” is being near dead or dead.

DD is exiting. Big numbers, things explode, you almost die but survive last minute to cast that 1 last nuke… watching packs melt cause you “play good”… ect…

If they want more tank players they should give more tools to control packs and bosses in a M+ run. Like more AoE silences, more grips, ect… and focus less on survivability and damage.

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11

Jup, instead they nerfed exactly that going from DF to TWW. :man_facepalming:

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12

When we want more tanks; I think it has more something to do with the lack of self sustain and survivabilty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtjzUdmsH_E

(iZen)

13

I see comments made about it all the time, people are anxious about making routes/leading the group. A DD/healer just holds W and does their stuff. The tank has extra things to worry about, in a pug at least.

I do agree more utility would be more fun, but i know it to be fact that there’s plenty of potential new tanks that are anxious. I’ve done plenty of keys as DD throughout the expansion and the group puts the tank on blast for any mistake. Imagine its your first ever run. Many DD/Healers mistakes people don’t even notice early on.

you’re talking about more established tanks, people that already played it and are now getting farmed because they were already on the redline when it came to dying in keys. Now they’ve been pushed over it.

Last expansion you could just do your rotation as the meta tank at the time (vdh :confused: ) and be fine 99% of the time. Now if you don’t know your tankbusters you just die.

14

I don’t really have an issue with how things are atm. “Making everything the same” is a bit vanilla, different things have different consequences.

Yes a tank makes the route, that route should be inline with what the group can handle. If a tank dies it could be a misplay (boohoo the group is collateral damage) or it could be a symptom or group misplays, in that case its only right that the group gets punished as a whole.

I also disagree with tank death = group wipe. A lot of times packs can be kited out or one person dies before a res goes off on bosses. How the group reacts to a death is a sign of its quality (or lack of).

15

Comments and “acquaintances” don’t count as data.

Fact of the matter is that DDs get roasted a ton as well. For lack of DPS, getting 1-shot by avoidable mechanics, ect… Healers also get roasted for not healing… And all that is most noticeable at the beginning.

Basically, we all had that 1 idiot in a group that will look for any excuse from anyone to start trolling. Tank, healer or DD. Fortunately most people do not roast other players. At worst they give some tips and suggestions to the tank, which are always welcome.

What I want to say is that anxious people tend to not do dungeons at all. Because they might fail early on as a tank (or DD or Healer) cause they are learning. But they most definitely will fail later on with harder keys because learning is not a process one can complete (only the “pros” can aspire to be close to perfection).

And this applies to any roll. Tank, DD or Healer. Dosent matter.

Basically: Individuals who are sensitive to the comments of internet trolls, and/or are sensitive to failure should play Delves instead. There is a place in wow for everyone.

Because saying “tanking is hard” is not fair. Because M+ is hard for everyone, including DDs. Sating tanks have to “lead groups” is also not fair. They dont lead anything. Its much simpler than that: People find tanking boring (compared to DDing).

16

If a tank dies, it is a skill issue. get gut :dracthyr_hehe_animated:

17

Disagree. Perhaps “lead” isn’t the perfect word but they have far more responsibility than your average DD.

The tank sets the route, controls pull size, works on positioning mobs etc etc. The difference a good tank makes to a run is night and day. For most keys whether the dps does 700k / 900k or 1.3m overall just makes the run a bit shorter or longer.

Such insights.

1 Like
18

Which == copy paste routes from Mythic Guru.

I know they do this because I research routes myself. And they are built for specific comps, with specific classes, specific overall DPS (aka. timing of CDs), ect…

The amount of tanks that are unaware that the size of the pull depends on the availability of CDs of your party is baffling. They dont even have Omni-CD installed.

And then dont be ridiculous. Other than DB and SB the rest of the dungeons are just press W when it comes to routes. I mean common… what is the route in say… Stone Vault?

That is why tanks dont “lead” anything.

The difference between 3 DDs that know what they are doing is also night and day. As a healer, in some dungeons I can literally AFK and cast ligning bolts all day because nobody receives any damage.

And that is why on top of kicks and stuns, doing 1.3M overall DOES make a really impactful difference. I can feel it as a healer, and so can tanks. Especially in bosses where CD management is a thing, so if you can skip certain phases things become orders of magnitude easier.

Eg: 2nd boss of Boralus. The first AoE you pop CDs. But its “easy” because all you have to do is turret heal. But the 2nd AoE, its with swirlies and you have to do it on the move. If DD DPS is high, then you skip that phase and it turns the boss from a challange to a meme.

And that is 100% the DDs. And I could say the same about the impact of a “good” Heal.

All in all, M+ is a teamwork thing. You cannot say which roll has it worse, because its the wrong way to look at it. Every roll has a job to do. Every roll is equally important.

And to be honest, if we stop pretending like DDs dont have a job to do… maybe we can stop pretending like its the tanks/healers job to cover for that. DDs DO have a job to do, and good DD is really impactful on the key.

Maybe then when people realize that the responsibility to the team is equally shared people will stop whining about healing and tanking.

19

That is true, most of the times, as it is for other roles. But is the only roles that put everyone else in the group in immediate danger and can snowball into a full wipe pretty much instantly.

Guess that is why most people feel the extra responsibility.

20

Such an odd way of thinking about this.

M+ is a group activity. The group fails if any of it’s members fail. Of course with contempory levels of self healing the group can go a short time without a healer. If a DPS dies then the fight might take a little longer so the timer might be missed.

But it’s up to the group to keep the tank alive. The healer ensures their health is kept at a reasonable level. DPS must interupt and avoid pulling other mobs and not standing in too much bad and diverting the healer away from keeping the tank on their feet.

Why are we thinking about this from an individual perspective when it’s a group activity?

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