If you are multi rank 1 boosting

PVP Arenas
142

This isn’t true, Jungle is a hard counter to any RMX comp and its very good currently. The problem with Frost is it wins in dampening (unless you mess up pretty badly) and the current meta sees faster games that generally end before you reach that point. Frost is good, its not weak at all… but it lacks strong burst but has better consistent dmg. But its not high enough consistent dmg to close out a game before damp, so Frosts problem is its just poorly suited to the current meta. I don’t deny that RM is rarely in a bad place… I’m sure people will instantly disagree with this but Rouge Mage is only as good as the players, they are both very skill depend classes, yes the way Fire and Assa deal dmg is pretty noob friendly, but the other fundamental areas of those 2 classes require a lot of time and experience in arena to develop. I will point out RMPala is a very noob friendly version of Rouge Mage since its extremally easy to create setups thanks to HoJ and yes, there are a lot of bot Mages that don’t actually have the fundamentals of that class but climbed the ladder thanks to RMPala being very easy to play. But for RMD & RMP (without Spite)… if your Rouge or Mage lack the fundamentals of when to do what and how to do it with little assistance then those comps go no where.

But here’s the real question, something is always going to be ontop… that’s how it is, would you rather it be comps like RMP/RMD? or would you rather see Melee or Caster Cleaves on top? its basically a situation of pick your poison.

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Jungle is not a hardcounter to RMX, not today and especially not looking at it historically (since WoD).

Jungle is currently a soft-counter to RMX, if anything. Do you want to know how many actual hard counters Jungle has?

This is the difference with RM and others. You exaggerate your weaknesses, as if it’s not allowed for RM to have any. Which is, although a bit hyperbolic, the situation today.

Shifting the blame to HPala.

There’s always going to be a very strong healer that enables RM with the way they’re designed right now (relative to others). It could be Pala, Druid, Priest, Monk or even Shaman. So, does the problem lie with the fact that we have strong healers or the fact that we have two classes that have an overloaded toolkit to the point that they are S Tier with basically whatever healer happens to be the best?

You brought up Jungle, HPala Jungle is not OP like RMPala. Nor are a whole bunch of other HPala comps. Why is RMx OP with basically whatever healer happens to be good?

Do you design the game around the bottom or around the top? In my opinion it’s quite clear that you ought to balance and design the game around players that know how to play (the top). Of course, if something’s truly ruining the lower brackets you solve the issue (but in such a way that it doesn’t ruin things at the top).

I would rather we have a shifting meta with different comps shining. Different classes and different comps, instead of RMx all the time. It’s okay to not be S tier all the time. :slight_smile:

What we’ve had all of BfA is, basically, RMX + Warlock dampening comps.

2 Likes
144

Don’t forget the tank trinket melee cleaves

1 Like
145

True, that existed. So I forgot about the meleecleave dampening comps :slight_smile:

146

I don’t really see how this relates to what I said about mage and Rouge fundamentals, the entire point of me saying that was many people perceive RMX to be a face roll and requires little skill to pull off. Also about shifting the blame to Hpally, it is 100% the Hpally that makes RMPala OP, the pally can solo setup go’s for the Rouge and Mage while having hard stops for dmg and the CDR further increases Hpally effectiveness in that comp.

In my opinion a shifting Meta is something that’s not really possible in a game like WoW unless they are constantly buffing and nerfing things… but some comps are on top (RMX) because of what the classes can do when put together in the hands of skilled players… you can’t really fix that with a simple buff or nerf, Rouge Mage are strong because of class synergy and unless you break that synergy they will always be strong together.

This is my opinion on it… whatever comp is on top should require high amounts of skill, not some PvE comp.

147

Oh, I never tried to claim that RMX is easy. Quite the contrary.

If a comp just happens to be incredibly good with basically any healer it’s always that healer that’s at fault?

Let’s just agree to disagree.

Yes, because their toolkits are overloaded compared to others.

Ret, Feral, Enhance, Survival, Elemental, MM and probably a lot more that I’m forgetting are lacking massively compared to Rogue and Mage! (feel free to fill in with more examples, readers).

How does this rhyme with RMx having a larger and more efficient toolkits than others?

There are tons of comps that used to be complex and skillful that have been pruned (with no chance of getting unpruned as I explained earlier) that are now being slain by RMx because for some reason Rogues and Mages are immune to nerfs. Just look at the Shimmer nerf on beta, it was basically removed (cd increased by 5sec instead of only 1x charge).

There are many comps that require a considerable amount of skill, used to be more of course, that simply don’t get a chance because RMx lords over them.

148

This was because of the mobility issue I talked about earlier, if you have 1 Shimmer how do you deal with DH, WW, DK, Warriors etc. DH has the same mobility as a Mage, WW has more, DK has ways to negate the mobility (Grip & Chains), Warrior has Charge and a leap. Take 1 Shimmer away and you give melees even more up time. I think the increased CD is reasonable, you will get punished harder for miss using your blinks now.

which ability’s would you like to see removed? Remove some of the Rouges control and it becomes a squishy Warrior, remove Mages mobility and its basically a squishy Warlock (in current game design anyway), maybe instead of removing things they can give things back… Shadowlands is a step in the right direction with that.

149

Again, you don’t need to always have a counter to everything. No one else does.

If you’re not willing to give up your defensives, not your mobility and not your CC - then what are you willing to give up?

I thought I was pretty clear on this? I’d like to nerf Rogue and Mage defensives. Feint and Temporal Shield are good options (possibly this new Alter Time as well).

150

You could make RMX have less sustain and make it more setup orientated like it was in the past, also I’m not sure you realise how much of an impact removing those ability’s will have, RM will get run over by any comp that has high sustain and high disruption. Shimmer doesn’t allow a Mage to counter melee cleaves, it allows you to create space when you need it. I do want to mention though Feint & Temp both require primitive use, they aren’t “Oh sht buttons” if you use them that way you get little to no value. Temp also has counter play, you can Maledict it, Sharpen it, Purge it, Clone or Imprison it. All of these cause Temp to give little or no value. Warriors get even more counter play to Mages survivability in Shadowlands with Shattering Throw for the Ice Block too and Temp is an Arcane only spell and every other spec gets Altertime, which is a survivability nerf in itself. I think you mentioned it before but if you want them changed you’d need a full redesign on their defensive side so they don’t end up being gimped.

I will also add… Mages and Rouge will become a lot more squishy with the removal of the Vers amps too. This plays a big part in the current game.

151

And since Mage has no sustained it’d only be Rogue nerfs then? Jeez, we keep coming back to nerfing everyone but Mages all the time.

It’s the combination of having all of these things that make Mages, and Rogues, too powerful.

Sure, there are ways to counter them - but you have more ways of counter them than they do of countering you. Because you have the bigger toolbox.

One class gets considerably more than Mages and Rogues out of… 6-8 that could use it?

They need to end up being gimped. That’s the entire point. You can’t have the cake and eat it too. You can’t be S tier all the time, unlike everyone else.

And so will everyone else, and everyone else will do less damage too (as will Mage and Rogue).

152

It’s kinda not though, RMD is viable when druids are good, but they’re currently not, so RMD isn’t particularly good.

RMM isn’t very good either as monks are good at playing pretty defensively and far back, which doesn’t fit what RMX is trying to do at all.

RMS is probably the worst version of RMX since shamans work best playing with classes that have strong self-sustain as their healing throughput isn’t the best, instead having things like an interrupt, various totems and being basically unkillable, all of which is also too defensive to suit RMX.

I mean, some of those specs are hot garbage while some of the others are among the best specs in the game.

I don’t really see what survival or elemental are really missing compared to rogue or mage, being completely honest.

That is probably the main thing that is putting RMX over the top though? The fact that the comp never really has to let up pressure is because rogues do insane damage as long as they get to sit on a target.

153

Uhh no… you keep bringing it back to that and insinuating that I only want Rouges nerfed by the looks of it when I;ve suggested Mage nerfs also but nerfs that don’t completely ruin the class, which you seemingly want. Lets just leave this conversation here as its going no where. You have your mind made up regardless of what I say.

154

What am I even reading here? monkaStop

Are you actually saying that melee cleave vs RMx is just PvE? Your comp LITERALLY has all the cards in their hand and the melee cleave is forced to play defensively and counter your goes. Lets talk about TSG for example. As a DK you are not allowed to trinket before mage presses Combustion or your team loses. Your healer is not allowed to dispell anything before Maut trinkets are on cooldown. And every 25seconds you need to peel the kidney go. And if all else fails RMx can turn into healer training comp and just train the healer and go for kill on him if they can’t properly do setups. TSGs only win condition is to counter every go and win when pala/disc is oom. That is literally ~5 minutes of countering whatever the RMx does, I wouldn’t call that PvEing.

Also I fail to understand how can’t you kite melee cleave? Just drag them to bad position for them and they either follow and you force cds/win or they don’t follow and you can do w/e you want then. I find it hilarious that you keep saying kiting double melee is impossible. All you need to do is live the ~25sec between kidneys and you have plenty of tools to accomplish that. And on the top of that none of you can be punished. If we swap for the rogue for even a second the mage starts spamming fireball to get his next combustion before my AMZ and then we lose. It’s like do you even think what your enemies need to do to win against RMx? :slight_smile:

ps. I remember facing you once during the season and it took you only like 3 polymorphs to figure that you can fireblast at the end of polymorph cast to not donate us free cc :slight_smile:

3 Likes
155

Yet whenever a healer pops up, whatever healer* it may be, RMX pops up as one of if not the best comp.

*RMS and RMM are the worst versions, but RMM has been viable. RMS, maybe not so much.

Among the best specs in the game? Which one? Please tell me which spec on that list has been consistently good for the last, I don’t know, 4 expansions?

Nah, I think you’re exaggerating.

Survival = Defensives and CC
Elemental = CC and mobility, respectively. I’d say.

Probably more stuff that I forgot about, I don’t main either of those specs unfortunately.

However, and again you can argue that “well they should” - but that’s just a distraction which will not solve the issue, because we all know Blizzard won’t do it. Moreover, you could add more things to all the specs I just listed (and some of it would probably be right) but at some point you have to wonder - what should the strengths and weaknesses of specs be? Should Elemental be more mobile, or have more CC?

I think it’s the fact that they never die. And again, both Rogues and Mages love to blame all the issues on the other parties.

It’s like two robbers claiming it was only the other one and that they weren’t complicit, and the court not being able to convict anyone.
"
Mages: Yes you can nerf Rogues, they’re what’s breaking RMX!!!
Rogues: Yes you can nerf Mages, they’re what’s breaking RMX!!!
Blizzard: ???
"

I don’t want to ruin the class. If you consider large nerfs to Mage and Rogues survivability “ruining” the class then I have news for you: Every other spec is ruined, and are not going to get unruined (even by the “unpruning” expansion).

You’ve suggested meaningful changes to Rogues, that I’ve seen. I might be slow but can you please quote the changes you’ve proposed for Mages that wouldn’t just result in a status quo?

Yeah, you seem to be very protectionistic as well :slight_smile:

But you’re right, we should end this discussion - it’s very off-topic.

2 Likes
156

Uhh… what? You don’t generally go on a DK unless its in dampening, so I don’t know why you think that and a healer holding his dispel until claw has gone out? seriously?

“I remember facing you once during the season and it took you only like 3 polymorphs to figure that you can fireblast at the end of polymorph cast to not donate us free cc”

Not really sure what this is suppose to mean? care to explain?

157

I suggested nerfs for both classes, so I don’t know how you come to that conclusion, what you want to do to “tone them down” is just unrealistic, either removing something out right or nerfing it by 80%? that’s to much, but some nerfs are fine… as I’ve said.

158

Can you please quote your explicit proposals?

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“Temp is an ability that takes good awareness to use effectively though, I feel like removing ability’s that require skill to use is bad, if you use it to late or soon you get very little value but if you use it at the right times it can top you from 10%, maybe they should just nerf the value you get from it… feint is kind of similar like pre feinting stuns etc as a Rouge takes good awareness… if you see what I’m trying to say, maybe increasing feints CD would be a better option?”

Here it is, while I didn’t give specifics for the abilities I did suggest a value nerf on Temp, so maybe it only heals back 70% of the dmg taken instead of 100% is what I mean by reduce value, I then suggested upping Feints CD.

I also suggested nerfing the mastery scaling on Fire because of the Blaster Master trait and removing MS from Rouge.

So please, how am I protectionistic?

160

A 30% nerf to 1 ability is hardly going to make a substantial difference.

Feint already has a 15sec CD, but sure let’s give it a 3min CD.

Well, let’s end the discussion here anyway. We’re in the wrong thread anyway.

161

It does actually… if I take 200k dmg, currently if I temped perfectly I’d heal back 200k, if you nerfed it by 30% in the same scenario I heal 140k back, that’s quite a difference.

If you increase Feints CD Rouges have to use the ability with far more care, 3 mins is WAY to much for it… maybe give it 25 - 30 second CD.

30% is far more realistic than the 80% nerf or all out remove that you propose.