Terenas Menethil II made a mistake he should have lined them all up and beheaded the scum as genn and Anasterian wanted history proved him a fool
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The decision Human kingdoms faced with Orcs was not an easy one. The alien race beaten and without land or home. Resentment to each other and damage done.
Kill them off would have avoided them future headaches and it would be more effective for survival and influence. Morally though - that would bare down on society for ages to come.
Enslaving them was less harsh but very short sighted they didnāt account for how long it would last and how much it would cost their empires. Rising generations of slaves would one day backfire and it did sooner then later.
Giving them land and trying to build a society with orcs on good terms could work, but that would cause social unrest and misunderstanding with such a slim chance of that actually working and not making another Stormwind happen.
Orcs have shown to be beasts in the hands of a wrong leader, usually theily are very primitive creatures who follow the rule of strong leader, but they have also shown to be capable of co existence under Thralls rule.
But having put on roulette just for a slimmest chance to make some negotiations work with orcs and put their own necks on risk would not be too logical for Human Kingdoms. Someone like Anduin Might have done that - but fail to see all the kingdoms coming together with this idea.
Integrating the new generation that came after the camps would minimise the future damage that came with the Human and Orc conflict.
As of pure less headache standpoint executing the orcs was the cleanest way to go about.
TBF its not humans who would be lucky but Orcs themselves. Since the fool would kill them all on human sword once again.
I think itād have been possible. It worked in real live, even with one of the then Allied Leaders arguing against it.
Germany was rebuilt as a strong Ally with Support from mostly the US, and today our closest friends are the same people that fought my great grandparents in the Trenches.
I think it could have been possible in WoW, economical buildup combined with military supervision until the warmongers are so clearly in the minority and the rest sees the benefits of peace over war. Maybe even integrate them into their own society a few generations down the line, not as āsecond classā-citizen, but equals.
As seen in Thrall, itās mostly a thing of nurture how Orcs behave, and he turned out fine even as someone who was enslaved at birth and forced to fight in the Arena from childhood.
ps. Diplomacy with the Frostwolves and maybe a push for shamanistic practices under Drekāthar may have helped as well, to give the Orcs a sense of identity that was missing during their imprisonment.
The Camps only possible outcome was failure.
Using what we know so far, this could have been the way forwards. Iād have been interested to see how the Orcs couldāve become after being given a chance of integration.
This outcome feels like something writers would not approve of, however. As we all know their aims and objectives are not - unfortunately - often to the favour of interest beyond shock tactics.
ā¦Well yeah, but that logic could be applied to just about anything. Why handle a problem when you could just drop it like a sack of potatoes, right?
Ehhā¦ canāt really compare Germany with orcs. Same kind, with culture and land already preestablished nation. Orcs came seeking conquest and they shared none of those traits. They have sent mainly warriors for conquest. And as different race they do not share any common ground with humans.
As said they are tribal race whi follow strong leader of their own. I doubt Thrall or any would have same impact them being bootlickers of Human kingdoms. Why Thrallās leadership worked was that he offered orcs freedom and new future.
You also have to consider there was no love from Humans to orcs so that kind of mission requires loads of deliberate effort.
Well on what exactly. Orcs were few and new alien species on a planet contesting for survival and they lost after the invasion. The easiest thing that would nave no rippling effect for Humans would have been removing them or sending them back to outland but they couldnāt. So ā¦
Instead, they removed themselves. Yet evidently, Humans were in it for the headache to chase them.
So ā¦
See what iām getting at here?
Huh ā¦? Thats exactly what you are getting at. There is no love between the nations and said rippling effect has came true and new permanent threat exists for them.
They ravaged the lands before they reached Kalimdor and even then fought them. You see there was kill on sight from both sides and thats what I mean. Either diplomacy (which is slim chance with orcs) or getting rid of them would be best solution from Human perspective.
I highlighted that said permanent threat removed itself to the point that with your logic, they shouldnāt have bothered because it was essentially no longer their problem.
Well letās see hereā¦
As you said, and rightly so, humans had more right to kill them. So what would have been the better alternative in Thrallās position to execute the plan to get the heck out of EK if said methods would have resulted in bloodshed anyway?
Are you about to suggest that Human dockworkers and sailors were more amicable to negotiation? If youāre going to argue the collateral damage, then itās only reasonable to think you have a better solution than what happened.
Beyond execution of course.
I like how you think Orcs are dumb savages with little changes of succeeding in diplomacy when the plot around Kalimdor with Trolls and Tauren was literally them getting successful aid to survive in such a harsh landscape.
In fact, if the Orcs did as the Humans believed to just about anything they see, then they would have died out in Kalimdor a very very long time ago.
Thereās more then enough room to settle the Orcs, give them Alterac, the Kingdom that betrayed the others to settle with military oversight of the Alliance, use enforcement AND support to steer them in the Position of a close Ally who is thankful for the Hand that reached out, instead of an enemy who wants to break the hand that choked them for nearly 2 decades.
I think there are more then enough parallels to compare the Horde after the second war to the germans after the second world war.
Militaristic people with a dark history broken in spirit and with a need to start completely from zero.
Iām not washing away Human guilt here. Yes Daelinās action were mistake and sabotaged the diplomacy that was being built between Theramore and Ogrimmar. But for them it was their enemies breaking free and growing stronger - they had no knowledge of Thralls plans to rebuild new home and change their ways. Especially after breaking free some orc clans continued attacking human settlements, for them there was no indication of peace and the bad blood between them made some compelled to chase orcs down and exterminate them.
Iām not saying any of those - the fact that there was no information from any side made it harder and tensions even higher. I described the solution purely from Human Kingdoms perspective.
That was when they had Thrall in charge, a man on a mission raised by Humans. Thrall did not want conquest he wanted home for his people. And unaffected by the bloodthirst of his kin. And yes Orcs under Demon influence were beasts ravaging through everything they touched. It was handful like Ogrim and Thrall that had ability to negotiate and have honor uphold their words. But building future with alien race that have demonstrated to be bloodthirsty and defeated twice is a very slim and slippery slope for humankind.
And it was evident even Thrall needed time to get most of his people under one ideology and having extra tension from humans, would made it hard. Grom went and made same mistake twice before he was proven wrong. Not to mention other more radical clans that sacrificed villigers for Legion still and opened portals to let demons it.
And even more differences to draw as well. I find it hard to believe the old Alliance of 7 kingdoms all in unity agreeing on growing potential snake in their lands. They were not their own and different like night and day - at least back then they did and believed so. Even notion of camps made two kingdoms withdraw from the Alliance. Now imagine giving a land to the defeated enemy for a possible future allianceā¦
Why not just kill them and be done with it. Rebuild Alterac and continue dominance of EK.
Why is one better solution then the other for human perspective?
Because genocide is bad. Even if you genocide a beaten foe.
Yes, thats why I said it was hard choice. And those who came forth were soldiers ready to conquer - sacked Stormwind and left nothing behind. Even after this it still would be amoral thing to do - but consider that it was provoked onslaught in medivial time setting where humans already had records of doing such with their foes.
It was a choice between morality and safety of their people.
What makes you think that if they did get the information, they would have let the Orcs do what they liked? I have doubts that anything would change because - again drawing from the material we have and had - both sides had more animosity in between them in the first place.
If you are going to use the Human Kingdomsā perspective, then I would like to hear your thoughts and theories around this since it has already been - repeatedly established - that humans had more reason to kill Orcs than spare them. Even if the Orcs said that theyāll go away.
But you just proved my point there? The Orcs had their own internal strife, yes, and like you, iām not going to wash the fact that the Orcs are not definitive of war and savagery, but the evidence of how they survived in their struggle even in Kalimdor is evidence that they are not as what the humans love and enjoy accusing them of.
Youāve said yourself - again - that humankind and Orc chances of diplomacy are comparable to a wolf eating vegetables soā¦
Alterac negotiated with Orgrim to secure peace between them and the orcish Horde. And Orgrim was shown willing to honour said deal.
But again, iām not saying iād expect humans to be willing to take it.
And after the war iād fully expect of them to take on a questionable route, specially given they were having a tough time acknowledging the fact that orcs were people and not random demons.
But in all, the whole premise about negating the fundamental sketchiness of this concentration camps route, falls quite short.
Yep, doing whatās ārightā often entails a high risk.
But that doesnāt mean that an alternative route was completely impossible or that what it was finally done, wasnāt morally questionable. Even if it was to some degreeā¦understandable.
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Nothing would guarantee their safety and maybe not much would have changed. Only that Orcs would make their goals clear a message sent that they seek no war at least for now. And Thrall did have it in mind. But not all were rallied behind him and all humans would want is small provocation to smear every single one of them with another crime.
Only thing that could come out of it it that it would give Orcs moral upper hand and potentially generate more sympathisers then them not doing so.
Oh no thats what Iām trying to say that for Humans it would be easier and more reasonable just to kill them or keep them under their heels (only though they had no plan to keep them caged long term) Thats the original statement we started to discuss this.
And that would pose future possible threat to their nations again. And why make that possibility a reality when you can just end it right then and there. With some blood on their hands that threat would at least be dealt with.
Iām not denying they had their own strife. But up until they had someone with clear mind and understanding of their peoples struggles and the planet they lived in, Orcs were chaotic force, there was no unity in their cause only conquest that united them not the vision or ideologies. They still served the demons and were betrayed from inside. Thrall managed to take the pieces of their broken people and their values and apply it to his own vision for them. It was a rather fortunate scenario. He managed to direct that strife to more unified way, because by that time orcs were already broken and beaten looking for any help. But when they stepped through the DP they were full of conquest and pride and its hard to rally such people under one ideology(leave alone the demon influence).
Yes Thrall proved that orcs can be more then savages, he basically spread the Frostwolf way of life on all his clans. And it took time and effort, but even to this day the two race dont see eye to eye.
Human accusation comes from the actions of orcs itself and disbelief of such creatures can change. Jaina did once, but she had to eat tone of sh*t for that. Because they are as quick to jump on warmode if anyone offers them. Garrosh was a perfect example of the temporary peace gone to Ash under the different rule.
Yeah it kinda is, especially given the figures that represented each race. So thatās why I think most logical and easiest way for humans to solve their problem was to end them.
It certainly does. Worst choice imo.
Lmao. The humans would stand no chance against Grommash. The alliance was lucky that an useful idiot like Thrall who values peace over the lifes of the Orcs as leader of the Horde. If he wouldnāt hold the Horde back with his stupid appeasement the Alliance would be super dead by now. Next faction war we will finish the job and kill the entire Alliance for good. No mercy for the people in blue. Lokātar!
Well, to be fair, iād say that systematic eradication wouldāve been worse.
And it was an alternative many contemplated (Kaelāthas and Genn amongst them).
For all the alternatives considered, even if they amounted to a range of nasty decisions, they finally went for the ālesser evilā.
Easier? yes. More reasonable? perhaps. I cannot delve further from what we have experienced and seen because that would be pure whataboutism. However, and to bring up a slightly new point, so would be the apparent result of wiping all the Orcs out from man, woman, kid and its elderly.
Theyād get rid of a problem, for sure, but then theyād have a lot of other problems to deal with. Surprisingly many of them do not involve the Orcs at all.
Not to mention in an in-universe perspective that World of Warcraft as a game would probably not exist at all due to its deep connection with this particular conflict.
Perhaps. Only because Jaina and Taretha are examples of Humans looking past the animosity to find a connection. So it is possible. But then overall, nothing can change indeed.
Or even worse, the humans would find another chapter of internal conflict for themselves to solve. Heck, your logic of complete eradication to solve a problem actually already happened in this instance with the fate of Taretha.
Another example of covering all bases, yes.
Wasnt first two invasions included soldiers and not civilians. And as for result yes it would have same result even if that included that really hard choice to make.
such as?
That is true.
Thatās the battle for ideologies and not being able to
How?
Yeah morally ofc Camps made more sense I agree.
Plague.
Other Invasive races. (Yes, some of them did join, or were used by the Dark Horde, but EK was hardly the pinnacle of peace led by humanity in the first place.)
Do I need to define with more examples?