Who’s up for some pine nut spice bread?
Ooooh, I’ll be having some of dat, mon!
I be hungry fo’ readin’ dis pointless discussian.
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But…you do realize it’s not even up to debate anymore, she’s serving death and wants to kill everyone and control them in death. Even her own sisters. It’s not about viewpoints or philosophy or ideology. The writing isn’t that deep. She’s written as a villian, with insane goals in mind.
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And you’re the mastermind who deciphered all this, we get it!
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Gives Henjhin some Thunder Bluff pine nut spice bread
What are you talking about? What is wrong with you? Who hurt you?
1- “evil” is really the problem here. Thrall’s Horde, I mean the real HORDE we play in WC3 and WoW was never “evil”. And Turning this Horde into an EVIL HORDE is the REAL PROBLEM. I don’t know why you refuse to see it.
2- They “benefit” whole horde? How? What do you mean “whole” horde. If you only mean “Forsaken and Blood Elf people”, then no. “Whole” Horde is not formed by Forsaken and Blood Elf.
Orcs, Trolls and Taurens are being disturbed by the acts of Sylvanas. They are being forced to act oppose of their cultures and habits. Are you even trying?
3- “Doesn’t opress non-undead races” Man oh man… You are really trying to lie and joke here, aren’t you?
4- “Horde loses war only because…”
Only because Sylvanas can’t even make proper tactics. She acts like a childish dictator and doesn’t even care about making proper strategies. Acts according to her instincts and forgets the rest.
5- “Traitors like Saurfang and Baine”…
Do you even understand what are you saying? Thrall and Saurfang is the reason why Horde is here right here right now. I really can’t understand players like you think Saurfang is “traitor”.
Do you think George Washington was a “traitor” to US? Or Thomas Jefferson? Or Benjamin Franklin? No. They are the Essence of US. They can never be “traitor”.
Yet players like you still pushing this absurdity on the forums and the game.
Sylvanas is the “traitor” here. Because she refused to cooperate with Vol’jin, Thrall and Saurfang. If you can’t act to your core culture and core laws, you can’t accuse your core laws as “traitor”. That’s why you can’t define Saurfang as a traitor.
Can you understand? OK? OK.
6- “she’s a bad person, but great warchief”
If you can’t even handle the concerns of your generals, appease the necessities of your folk, and build proper war tactics, you can never be a “great” warchief. She is a bad person and a bad warchief.
Sylvanas is not even a proper warchief. She became one with a doubtful and shady situation, and we are still trying to solve that situation.
Stop acting like Sylvanas formed Horde by herself and hired us for her needs.
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Tauren aside, War solves everything for Orcs as is being said several times, Victory or Death.
And trolls value strength above all else, as is also depicted in Zandalar where Rhokan tells u that exactly.
So no, these races arent peacemakers. Get ur sht together
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jesus what happened to these forums.
did the unnecessary recycling of topics at a constant 24/7 finally break you all that you’re now slagging off each other more frequently to sell your cases?
many more windows need to be opened to let fresh air in, it seems!
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Then, you totally misunderstood or trying to misrepresent the word “Victory or Death”.
Victory or Death doesn’t mean “let’s oppress and massacre all the races in the world or die trying”.
It means “you need to risk death to achieve success”.
I love how players like you try to misrepresent Thrall’s Horde and Horde culture by showing this quote like an absolute proof, over and over.
But no, that tactic can never be wrong.
Horde, as the originally formed by Vol’jin, Thrall and Cairne, had some specific culture. Like acting honorable, never attack someone unprovoked, not murdering innocents, respect natural order and respect your elders.
Horde can do anything to survive in Azeroth, including forming good relations with Alliance. This doesn’t contradict with the “Lok’tar Ogar!” (Victory or Death).
This perspective changed with Garrosh and Sylvanas. Garrosh tried to follow the footsteps of Gul’dan’s Horde, and Slyvanas tried to follow the footsteps of Arthas’s Scourge.
And now some players use the “Victory or Death” quote just to justify behaviors of Garrosh and Sylvanas.
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The original Horde was the one that crossed the Dark Portal with Guldan and Grommash to conquer a new world.
Thralls Horde happened in WC3.
So get your “original Horde” facts right buddy
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While trolls aren’t the nicest guys in the world and as you say they value strenght above everything else, they’re very territorial and for thousands of years they didn’t really went for conquest.
Their only agressive moves (Besides Pandaria) were about reclamation of lost lands that were originally theirs. Trolls can make alliances and coexist with others races such as Tortollans, Volvar and such.
Don’t make out of them mindless brutes that just jump for slaughter. I mean they do like to brawl and they go berserk but there is more to their life than just that.
The playable Horde was created by Thrall, and is not tainted by demon blood. So he is right - the original Horde, the one that we play was created in WC3.
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This is just semantics, the rest of the points made by Komili are strong, why don’t you respond to those?
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Because he have arguments against them.
They aren’t though. Up till Darnassus, they were, but burning Teldrassil was neither logical, or pragmatic, in fact it was the opposite, she allowed one dying Kaldorei to cause her to alter her entire plan in a fit of pique. That wasn’t logical, that was emotional, it wasn’t pragmatic, as it wasn’t necessary. She had -won- It achieved no purpose.
Err, they really don’t. Her original plan was to take Darnassus and try to force the Alliance to accept a ‘Kalimdor is ours, Eastern Kingdoms is yours,’ situation. Sure, her own people might have been willing to relocate, but she would be throwing the Sin’dorei under the bus for no real tangible advantage.
Hmm, she’s kind of losing that at a rapid rate. She does not have the support or respect of -any- of the other leaders apart from the Mag’har, she kind of threw that away. She will have her supporters, certainly, but at the rate she’s going they will be vastly outnumbered, at which point it flips over and the Rebels become the Horde, and her forces become the Traitors. Its basically the clever thing about the Horde Blood Oath. It actually constitutionally allows members of the Horde to rise up against an incompetent Warchief who is not serving the Horde as ‘My Warchief’, without it being Treason. Garrosh failed to learn that lesson, and it rapidly seems that Sylvanas has too.
No she didn’t. Rok’han did with the Zandalari, Baine did with the Highmountain, and the Nightborne was a tag team of Lor’themar and Liadrin, in fact with the arrest of Baine, Sylvanas has actually broken those alliances. The Highmountain do not trust her, the Nightborne literally say they will do what the Blood Elves decide. The other races of the Horde in general do not trust her. She’s breaking the Horde apart, not adding to it.
What? SHe was doing that -before- she was even Warchief!
She really is not though. She is incapable of following her plans through, she is too emotionally unstable, and prone to throwing away an advantage in order to gloat, she does not understand how you -win- a War, rather than just try to psychotically kill everyone (the two are not the same) . Remember, she did -not- become Ranger-General of Quel’thalas by merit. She was made it because of who Mommy was, and her big Sister didn’t want it. She didn’t earn that rank, so she is no tactical Sun Tzu or Von Clausewitz. She thinks nothing of using her troops as ablative armour or accepting their losses as collateral damage, and has learned nothing from when she was alive, unless you have -ridiculously- superior numbers, and there are other factors involved, you do not win a war by just throwing bodies at a problem, you need tactics, a strategy, contingency plans, You can’t simply go “Well, we’ll fight here till everyone is dead, then ermm…plan B…oh, everyone is dead…”
Now at this point someone may be tempted to go “Nuh-uh, Brigs you smartypants, the Russians did exactly that in WWII”
They didn’t. That isn’t what won the war. If it was purely a case of throwing troops at the problem, how come they didn’t conquer Finland in their war just prior to WWII? They had the numbers, right?
We’ve all read about, or seen in films the “First man gets the rifle, Second man gets the bullets,when the First man dies, the second man picks up the rifle and carries on” trope. And it is true. That did actually happen. Russia had more young men, than it had guns to equip them with, so did just throw them at the invading Germans, and those who refused to charge at the Germans, waving their magazine of bullets but no gun, were shot dead by their own side, after all, there was no shortage of meat for the grinder.
But they lost. The time when those were the tactics they used, were when the Russians were forced back on all fronts, cities were encircled and sieged, in some cases so badly, that the inhabitants in those cities had to resort to cannibalism, They only turned the tide mid-war, when their Army became a more professional one, when it was better equipped, had enough guns and resources, had better generals (It helped that Stalin stopped putting them all in gulags) and those generals were allowed their expertise, instead of a dogmatic “Just charge them!”. That is when they started winning.
Sylvanas doesn’t think that way, she really isn’t that good a tactician. So no, she’s not a great Warchief, same as Garrosh was not a great Warchief, but made some glaring noob errors…
She sent Assassins after Thrall. Why do that? He wasn’t -at that point- a threat. He was living on his farm, on a different planet, and had no interest in getting involved. He -was- no threat to Sylvanas, and wasn’t likely to be so. He was a non-factor. He wasn’t even going to be persuaded by Saurfang, he was -not- getting involved.
So what does Sylvanas, ‘Military genius that she thinks she is’ do?
She gives him a reason to get involved, she gives him a reason to hate her, she gives a figure so iconic that the Horde will rally around him and not her, a reason to -use- that status, come out of retirement and overthrow her. She basically sabotages her own reign! And she sent what, -TWO- Deathstalkers after Thrall. Two. Thrall. Two Forsaken, vs Thrall. What did she -think- the outcome would be, even if Saurfang hadn’t been there?
Absolutely amateurish planning, for an operation like that, you would want several cells, acting in relay, the ideal situation in fact would be them operating separately, without knowledge there-were- other operatives in the field.
She’s really not all that as a tactical or strategic thinker…
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The one we play was created in Vanilla. And it included Forsaken.
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To be fair that wasn’t the case.
She argued about an attack that would create a schism in the Alliance.
The bit about giving each race a continent was never on the table.
She thought she could end up claiming both.
Her endgoal was to destroy Stormwind too.
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The Forsaken were not representing the Horde, as narrator said it was alliance of convenience for them. The split was visible even in WotLK where Horde mobilising on Borean Tundra, while Dorsaken where launching from Fowling Fyord.
There is no apostrophe in Rokhan’s name.
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Still, they are and were part of the faction.
And Chronicles described them as such.
Plus, the founding orc values still created guys like Garrosh, so I doubt that going hard on any of those two roads is good for the Horde in the long run.
Best is finding some middle ground.
I wouldn’t want to die if my orc captain felt like having a pretty death.
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Part of the faction that joined for the sole sake of convenience without embracing the values and spirit of the founding races.
It is a big deal and this is why forsaken were called separate faction within the Horde. If they didn’t have any restrains to even sabotage the Horde - because in vanilla questing not only they purposely made experiments on Tauren who seeked help and wanted to kill her, but they were cooperating with Gimtotems as we find out in Dustwallow Marsh and we were forced to kill said Forsaken.
were we traitors since vanilla?
And yes, Garrosh tried different approach - he is dead now. His entire faction turned against him.
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