Introduce "Uber" style score

[Jimstab-blades-edge]

We’ve seen the new scoring systems that Blizzard is coming up with for M+. To me what is needed is some way to keep players accountable.

There is NO ramifications at the moment for screwing over other people whether it is in Rated BGs or M+.

People who excuse the behaviour of leaving the moment anything becomes frustrating or inconvenient for them in a M+ for example, have no reason to behave otherwise because there is no social ramification for doing so.

The kind of players I want are not just the good players, it’s the ones that stay. In fact, i’d take the people who play to the end and recognise that they are playing with OTHER people on whom there are consequences, over people who have done a dungeon 1 higher level.

It doesn’t need to be too elaborate, but a very simple rating or reporting mechanism to encourage good behaviour would do a lot to take the worst aspects of the internet out of wow, and re-introduce the best aspects of society/community into it.

The people who complain the most about it will always always be those that excuse selfish behaviour that is at the expense of others

[Nellja-magtheridon]

Well, if this isn’t beating the dead horse for the millionth time.

You are free to use the search tool to find out why would this never work.

The only thing that works, are player statistics, and guess what, Blizzard realised it, so they cracked down on the biggest offenders.

Sure, it may not “fix” the issue, but some, actually fair justice is far better than injustice or no action at all.

But Blizzard is on the right path at least.

[Uda-uldum]

Im kinda tired of having to repeat this again.

NOBODY joins a group with the intention of leaving. EVERYONE joins a group with the intention of finishing it and aquiring whatever reward it is they want.

Therefore, YOU might want to finish the dungeon over anything else. Because you want some gear or crests. Others might want rating. And problems begin when its clear that the key wont be timed.

YOU want to finish it and get some gear. Others dont. Because no time == no rating.

So what you are suggesting here is to give YOUR opinion/playstile more weight than everyone elses.

Does that seem fair to you ?

And with that said, you will quickly realize that this:

@Jimstab-blades-edge

It doesn’t need to be too elaborate, but a very simple rating or reporting mechanism to encourage good behaviour would do a lot to take the worst aspects of the internet out of wow, and re-introduce the best aspects of society/community into it.

Is virually impossible. There is no “very simple rating or reporting mechancism” that will be better than what we have now.

Because remember. Trolls and douches leave groups. But if you give them a tool to report people… what do you think they will do with it ?

Thats right. Right now they ruin 1 key. With a mechanism like that they can ruin YOUR reputation. For fun. Because they can and feel like it.

Are you 100% certain you STILL want a “simple system to report people” ?

[Jimstab-blades-edge]

Nope 100% dead wrong on the basics here. When you sign up to either a battleground or a mythic+ the social contract is that you are there to finish this. Sometimes that doesn’t suit me either - but i’m not about to screw over other people. Why? Because I signed up for this.

ANYTHING short of a group saying “happy to leave it there” or a life emergency is very simply people making excuses for their own selfish behaviour. Attempting to justify things that will be most convenient for them at the expense of other people.

Other good behaviour tools exist for a wide variety of games and it may surprise you to learn but the majority of people are pretty decent and don’t tend to abuse these kinds of tools or get found out real fast if they do. It can work in other games, it can work in this.

But again - your post is 100% about justifying your own behaviour

[Uda-uldum]

@Jimstab-blades-edge

mythic+ the social contract is that you are there to finish this

Ehhh… no… What “social contract” are you talking about ?

Nobody agreed to any of that. People play for many different reasons. Why is it so hard to understand?

And for the record, failing to understand that people might have different motivations to yours is literally the same attitude you are trying to complain about. You dislike people that leave your keys at your expense. But fail to understand that people might not like to be forced to stay at their expense.

@Jimstab-blades-edge

But again - your post is 100% about justifying your own behaviour

I never leave keys unless its agreed by the party. You are acusing me of things that you assume to justify YOUR behaviour.

And I never had this issue because I always join parties who’s members are in line with my expectations. In other words, I join keys to time them (rio). I invite people that also want to time them.

And if we wipe 5 times and will 100% not time it, its OK to leave. I WANT them to leave because I want to try again with a different party.

However, there have been times that I joined groups who’s purpose was to farm gear. So I invite people telling them from the start that we will finish it. And nobody leaves. And whoever does not agree leaves the group before the key even begins.

I dont have the problem. You apparently do. And based on my experience on how to prevent it, I see why keep having this problem.

@Jimstab-blades-edge

Other good behaviour tools exist for a wide variety of games and it may surprise you to learn but the majority of people are pretty decent and don’t tend to abuse these kinds of tools or get found out real fast if they do. It can work in other games, it can work in this.

Give me examples. I will debunk them all.

On the basis that WoW is not “other games”. Something that works in Darktide (the other game I play) will never work in WoW. Because they are different games.

And for the record, in Darktide they made a Havoc Mode. Which is a carbon copy of the M+ system. And in those forums I also say that the things that work here in WoW will not work in Darktide.

So go ahead. Start giving examples.

[Jimstab-blades-edge]

So 1st - 100% don’t believe you. I think you adjust what you do based on whatever is convenient for you at the time.

Your rationale from the very beginning is asinine.

This is the equivalent of everyone agreeing to meet for a zoom meeting for 30 minutes but one person leaving 5 minutes in because they are “bored” or the “meeting didn’t have their personal expectations” meaning the rest of the meeting can’t continue.

Yes social contract - it’s pretty fundamental to society. The idea that your actions affect other people and that you have a responsibility to other people. The idea that ANYONE signs up to a M+ with the idea that it would be perfectly fine for any individual to just leave the moment they are frustrated is absolutely ridiculous. So again - don’t believe you and i’d say your own moral judgement shifts depending on what’s most convenient for you.

Basic examples is Hots back in the day. Obnoxious behaviour? Report system. Constantly leaving? report system. Why? because there’s a basic understanding that if you sign up for a team game, you’ve signed up to play as a team.

If you don’t understand your actions affect other people - go play a single player game

[Uda-uldum]

@Jimstab-blades-edge

This is the equivalent of everyone agreeing to meet for a zoom meeting for 30 minutes but one person leaving 5 minutes in because they are “bored” or the “meeting didn’t have their personal expectations” meaning the rest of the meeting can’t continue.

No.

Its equivalent to inviting people (volutarelly, not for a job where they pay you to do it) to talk about food.

And instead you talk about politics. You have a right to leave whenever you want if you dont want to talk about politics.

@Jimstab-blades-edge

Yes social contract - it’s pretty fundamental to society. The idea that your actions affect other people and that you have a responsibility to other people

It has a limit. And you know it. Because another fundamental aspect of society is freedom.

@Jimstab-blades-edge

So again - don’t believe you and i’d say your own moral judgement shifts depending on what’s most convenient for you.

Choose to not beleive me. You walk in here with your own personal examples of how much people hurt you.

I gave you a solution, based on my own experiences:

@Uda-uldum

And I never had this issue because I always join parties who’s members are in line with my expectations. In other words, I join keys to time them (rio). I invite people that also want to time them.

And if we wipe 5 times and will 100% not time it, its OK to leave. I WANT them to leave because I want to try again with a different party.

However, there have been times that I joined groups who’s purpose was to farm gear. So I invite people telling them from the start that we will finish it. And nobody leaves. And whoever does not agree leaves the group before the key even begins.

And you choose not to beleive that.

If you dont beleive me, then I have no reason to beleive you. Its “social contract” if you wish.

@Jimstab-blades-edge

Obnoxious behaviour? Report system. Constantly leaving? report system. Why? because there’s a basic understanding that if you sign up for a team game, you’ve signed up to play as a team.

Leaver Penalty, Blizz, read this

Addressing the Issue of Players Intentionally Dying: Seeking Solutions and...

Sure. Whatever you say.

That works out just perfect.

[Jimstab-blades-edge]

@Uda-uldum

No.

Its equivalent to inviting people (volutarelly, not for a job where they pay you to do it) to talk about food.

And instead you talk about politics. You have a right to leave whenever you want if you dont want to talk about politics.

This is completely delusional to begin with. If you think that people sign up to a M+ with the general acceptance that it’s perfectly fine for anyone to leave whenever they feel like it rather than immediately going “that guy left and screwed us over” then completely detached from reality is all that comes to mind here.

So if you start from this idea then of course you’re going to end up with a conclusion (one that conveniently allows you to do whatever you want depending on the situation without regard for others)

[Nellja-magtheridon]

@Uda-uldum

And problems begin when its clear that the key wont be timed.

I hate to be the one, but that is very often not the case. People leave when expectations don’t align.

• Tank pulls too big? Try-hard tank, I am leaving.
• Tank pulls too small? I am here to +3 this, I don’t have time for this nonesense, bye.
• That DD is doing 40% less damage than I? I am not paid to carry this, even if will be timed anyway. Good luck!

@Uda-uldum

YOU want to finish it and get some gear. Others dont. Because no time == no rating.

Thank Elune that only item level 638 players are leaving dungeons.

@Uda-uldum

@Jimstab-blades-edge

mythic+ the social contract is that you are there to finish this

Ehhh… no… What “social contract” are you talking about ?

Nobody agreed to any of that. People play for many different reasons. Why is it so hard to understand?

I also must address this. You ARE entering into a social contract by joining/accepting PUG players into an M+ group. By entering, you are declaring that:

• You are able to perform your role at an acceptable level, which would result in the key being timed
• You treat players with respect and in line with the game’s terms of service

@Uda-uldum

Its equivalent to inviting people (volutarelly, not for a job where they pay you to do it) to talk about food.

And instead you talk about politics. You have a right to leave whenever you want if you dont want to talk about politics.

I don’t think that is a good metaphor at all.

@Jimstab-blades-edge

Other good behaviour tools exist for a wide variety of games and it may surprise you to learn but the majority of people are pretty decent and don’t tend to abuse these kinds of tools or get found out real fast if they do. It can work in other games, it can work in this.

Let it go man. This isn’t 2004 where people play solely for enjoyment. People min-max everything they can and if a system is implemented where players can input their opinion which would give them any advantage, then they would min-max (abuse) that system too.

Uda even gave you links where the options were discussed and everything can be abused.

[Uda-uldum]

@Nellja-magtheridon

@Uda-uldum

And problems begin when its clear that the key wont be timed.

I hate to be the one, but that is very often not the case. People leave when expectations don’t align.

• Tank pulls too big? Try-hard tank, I am leaving.
• Tank pulls too small? I am here to +3 this, I don’t have time for this nonesense, bye.
• That DD is doing 40% less damage than I? I am not paid to carry this, even if will be timed anyway. Good luck!

@Uda-uldum

YOU want to finish it and get some gear. Others dont. Because no time == no rating.

Thank Elune that only item level 638 players are leaving dungeons.

For sure. 100%.

There are a million reasons why people join keys. You just listed more than I did.

Thing is that when you got 5 people that dont join the key with the same goals you get issues like the ones you mention.

Tank pulls too big ? Talk before the key that you want it slow.
Tank pulls too small ? Talk before the key that you want to 3 chest it.
DDs not performing ? Talk before the key that you want to 3 chest it.

You do that, and magically nobody leaves the key. Everyone is there for the same purpose.

@Nellja-magtheridon

also must address this. You ARE entering into a social contract by joining/accepting PUG players into an M+ group. By entering, you are declaring that:

• You are able to perform your role at an acceptable level, which would result in the key being timed
• You treat players with respect and in line with the game’s terms of service

100%. The terms of service for sure. Nobody is allowed to insult other people.

As for the “perform your roll at an acceptable level” sometimes dosent result in the key being timed. Mistakes happen.

@Nellja-magtheridon

@Uda-uldum

Its equivalent to inviting people (volutarelly, not for a job where they pay you to do it) to talk about food.

And instead you talk about politics. You have a right to leave whenever you want if you dont want to talk about politics.

I don’t think that is a good metaphor at all.

100%. And that was the point because neither was OPs metaphor though.

[Uda-uldum]

@Jimstab-blades-edge

If you think that people sign up to a M+ with the general acceptance that it’s perfectly fine for anyone to leave whenever they feel like it

No. People join keys with an objective in mind. Gear. Rio. A fun chill run. To learn. To hurry the dungeon. To time it. To 3 chest it. For gold. For reputation. For cosmetics.

MANY reasons. And they join the key hoping that the 4 other individuals also share that goal.

But you dont know that. Not unless you ask them and agree to something.

And if you don’t, then you suffer the consequences. Sometimes you will align, sometimes you wont. Because 4 people are not 4 NPCs. You cant assume anything from anyone.

[Furfury-tarren-mill]

Wowprogress had something like “Karma” points if I remember correctly (in Legion, before raider io) - you could award player you ran a key with with a “karma point” if you enjoyed playing with someone. Just kinda like a “Like”.

It was an optional feature and some used it, some didn’t (had to login to your account on Wowprogress if you had one) but that was sometimes a good indicator if a player had like 30+ karma points. I remember I glanced at it from time to time, and I get what you’re trying to say and some sort of “reputation” base system I’m personally all for it.

[Jimstab-blades-edge]

So again - completely delusional as to what is expected when people join up. Either that or just deliberately dishonest.

But let’s assume this is the case. Then why not be in favour of such transparency. if for example, someone is a proflic leaver and constantly quits M+…I’d like to know that. I’d prefer to take someone with a lower rating than someone who has a reputation for constantly leaving M+s.

If people are there for a variety of reasons as you seem to think (as opposed to the very very obvious and commonly accepted one which is - to do the key and you commit your 30 or less minutes to that) - surely then this system would benefit you?

You think that people all over as as bad faith and will mass randomly report people who didn’t do anything wrong?

So as always when it comes to either reporting systems or any form of transparency at all - the same people are always against it - the anti-social people who never feel a shred of responsibility to any other person.

[Uda-uldum]

@Jimstab-blades-edge

if for example, someone is a proflic leaver and constantly quits M+…I’d like to know that.

Here is where you are delusional: Those people are so few it dosent justify changing a whole system. A whole system what just with the false positives it will create will punish more undeserving people than deserving people.

@Jimstab-blades-edge

to do the key and you commit your 30 or less minutes to that

The system would work. Assuming everything goes well. And in that case nobody will leave unless for very specific reasons. Usually, 90% of the cases, legitimate reasons (internet connection, RL emergency, ect…)

So you would not need a system.

If things dont go as planned. And you have ahead of you 2h to complete the dungeon. Then yeah. People will leave.

But then again, you have to respect those who dont want to spend 2h in a dungeon.

@Jimstab-blades-edge

You think that people all over as as bad faith and will mass randomly report people who didn’t do anything wrong?

You claim that there are a ton of people that are such hartless trolls that dont consider the wellbeing of 4 people.

Those same people you claim exist… these people:

@Jimstab-blades-edge

if for example, someone is a proflic leaver and constantly quits M+…I’d like to know that.

Are the ones that will abuse the system.

Its YOU that claims they exist. And if they dont, and everyone is a “nice guy” then there is no need for any system at all because every reason to leave is a legitimate “nice guy” reason to leave.

@Jimstab-blades-edge

So as always when it comes to either reporting systems or any form of transparency at all - the same people are always against it - the anti-social people who never feel a shred of responsibility to any other person.

Why do you keep acusing me and other like me of things that are not true ?

I AM social. I talk to people. I told you what I do, and by doing it I have ZERO leavers in my parties. And of course, I don’t leave as well. Because 5 people (including myself) are all aligned in the same interests.

You can continue to claim false accusations. But my observations are my observations, and if being social is not the cause, if its all blind luck… then why am I a special snowflake that never sees any reason to leave and never encounters leavers, but you do?

[Jimstab-blades-edge]

@Uda-uldum

Here is where you are delusional: Those people are so few it dosent justify changing a whole system. A whole system what just with the false positives it will create will punish more undeserving people than deserving people.

People leaving M+ after a bad pull is a constant complaint…what are you talking about. There are endless threads about it

@Uda-uldum

You claim that there are a ton of people that are such hartless trolls that dont consider the wellbeing of 4 people.

Those same people you claim exist… these people:

Because there is NO social consequence for doing it. You can totally screw over every person and face no consequence for doing that. Transparency breeds good behaviour. This is not difficult stuff

[Dejarous-draenor (Dejarous)]

@Jimstab-blades-edge

People leaving M+ after a bad pull is a constant complaint…what are you talking about. There are endless threads about it

Yea, 100 threads a year and 20 mill dungeons run a season. The odd person screaming really loudly that someone was mean to them on the internet is almost irrelevant.

[Uda-uldum]

@Jimstab-blades-edge

People leaving M+ after a bad pull is a constant complaint…what are you talking about. There are endless threads about it

Yes. But that is because of the difficulty of the dungeons. 1 wipe and you brick the key. Because of the -15s affix.

Like I said. If some people want to time the key and you wipe in the 1st pull with a guarantee of a deplete people will absolutely leave.

You know how you fix that ? You talk at the beginning of the key. You ask the tank to please not do a mega pull and you do smaller pulls.

In keys like GB, Arakara, and NW is absolutely unnecessary to do mega-pulls bellow a 11. Tanks sometimes forget. Talk to the tank and ask him (kindly) to do smaller pulls.

Problem solved. DONE.

And for the record, all those 100s of posts you mention say exactly that: Talk to the tank. Dont do MDI pulls because they are unnecessary.

Conclusion: Before the dungeon begins, click enter, type /party and talk to people. That is how you solve the leaver problem. Its not rocket science.

@Jimstab-blades-edge

Because there is NO social consequence for doing it.

I want to say something with respect to this: NOBODY joins a key with the purpose of screwing people.

Everyone has a reason. Gear, Rio, ect…

The consequence of leaving a key equals spending 2h in the LFG looking for a new group. They loose as well. They just think that they loose less by leaving.

You dont need social consequences when you already got material consequences. Dont forget that.

[Jimstab-blades-edge]

@Uda-uldum

If there are a ton of nasty people, then you need a system. Therefore, those “tons” of people will abuse the system and troll it.

But you claimed that they wont. That people are “nice guys”. Therefore, you are claiming that there are no nasty people that will abuse the system. Therefore, there is no need for a system.

1. Please google what a “paradox” is. 2) There is a VAST difference between a basic system that disincentivises bad behaviour and encourages the best in everyone, and the idea that this is needed because everyone is just so terrible and malicious. Nope. Most people are just a bit lazy and react to the consequences around them. If there are no consequences whatsoever, it’s hard to encourage good behaviour. Anyone with a kid knows this.

However you are at once claiming that people leaving like this is not really a problem but at the exact same time that people are so nasty and vicious that if any system existed people would like and cheat en mass.

But I can stop here because ultimately you’re starting from a completely delusional position which is the idea that when people sign up that they are not entering a social contract to commit their collective time to this. There’s no point engaging with someone who starts from a faulty premise and at worst - really is just looking for an excuse to do whatever they want regardless of consequence to others

[Uda-uldum]

@Jimstab-blades-edge

But I can stop here because ultimately you’re starting from a completely delusional position which is the idea that when people sign up that they are not entering a social contract to commit their collective time to this. There’s no point engaging with someone who starts from a faulty premise and at worst - really is just looking for an excuse to do whatever they want regardless of consequence to others

Im going to stop as well.

I have given you SPECIFIC solutions to your problems. I gave you the solution to how 30M keys were done with out any leaver problems. And you continue to insist that you somehow are doing things perfectly. Well you are not ! Leaver problems are as much YOUR problem than theirs. Because you refuse to type anything in the /party and walk around the forums calling people “anti-social”. Its absurd !

And then you continue to insist on some very vague “philosophy” with zero real life applications. And additionally you propose nothing but “systems that incentivize”. WHAT systems exactly ? And how would that incentivize people. And the few times you actually managed to be a little bit specific it was debunked streight away.

I will repeat again and again: There is NO perfect system. And any system that punishes 3 deserving people in exchange for punishing 20 undeserving people (because of false positives) is WORSE than no system at all that lets 3 bad people walk away but allows 20 good people to play the game normally. Which is what we got now.

And for the record, no system will reduce that number of “3 bad people”. Trolls are trolls. They will troll with or with out a system. So the only thing that changes is: Will you punish 20 innocent people or wont you?

Exactly like the HotS posts I quoted. Not worth it. And 30M completed keys with out leavers proves with out a doubt that I am 100% right. Its just difficult to be as anti-social as you are. Most people type stuff in the /party. Even if its just to say “hello”.

Its not rocket science. There are 100 posts about this already. Please read them ok ?