What’s important to me is right there in my post. Go read it.
A more appropriate analogy would be this:
There is an online FPS game you like. Let’s say it’s one of them open world tactical shooters. Then one day the developer decides to introduce a third person camera view and this is largely lauded by game’s community, yet you don’t like it because of how the third person camera view changes the game (and for the fact that many other games of the same genre already use the same camera view as well). You are told that “you don’t have to use the third person camera view”, but not using it would put you at a significant disadvantage against people that do. The benefits of the third person camera view are obvious, yet they change how the game is played. So your preferred way of playing no longer really exists, and due to trends in the genre there’s no game you can retreat to.
Would it be irrational to dislike that change?
Actually yes. Play the way you like and let others do the same.
What does t matter to you that others have an “advantage”? I never understood. WoW is not a race (except for the first XXX ach), the ressources do no get used up. Even if 5 millon players have ran that dungeon the droprates for you remain the same.
I play WoW with no addons, with all UI help as much as possibly disabled, minimap mostly closed and so on. I have fun my way, not your way or anybody else’s way and this must be what counts.
I am personally NOT going to use RDF, Dual spec, Race or faction change or any of the other disputed things coming or not coming in Wrath Classic.But anyway I say: Let them be in Wrath Classic as they were in Wrath, and this includes not at launch.
Well this is how I and many with me feel over the removal of RP servers and low-pop realms in general - and they were in Wrath too.
And opposite of LFD which you CAN decide not to use no matter how much you say the opposite. I cannnot use a realm that’s patently not there any longer.
Because it fundamentally changes how the game is played.
This bit here is kind of what I’m referring to. Research backs this up, as I’ve explained over in this thread: Random dungeon finder and Looking for dungeon tool - #128 by Terres-ravenholdt
Playing your preferred way isn’t really going to work when a large chunk of people will simply choose to use the easiest method available. Because the pool of people you can recruit from will have greatly diminished. You can of course team up with friends and guildees you already have (“cliques” as people refer to them as) but you’ll struggle to expand this group of “cliques” through the game itself.
During my time in retail 2017-2019 I made exactly one new contact through World of Warcraft. People say that this is not the fault of the Dungeon Finder and that it is the community that has changed.
During my time in Classic the summer of 2021 I made over a dozen. Yet people say that the social aspect of the game is dead and this does not happen because the community has changed and the Dungeon Finder won’t change anything.
1 Like
It’s not a good analogy, because the camera of a game is a core feature. That it’s like changing WoW from tab target to active combat. Of course this will have effects on the game.
A better analogy would be a shooter, where you would have to add people to your friendlist in order to play with them. So in order to play a match you have to actively search for players, add them to your FL and then you can play.
But because this is to tedious for a lot of players the developers introduced a feature, that will queue you and automatically assign a match for you.
In this example again you can choose to not use the new feature and nothing will chage for you. You can still proceed to play matches with your FL, find new people for the FL and even run automated matches, to maybe find new people there, you can put on your friendlist.
It won’t alter the base game. It won’t even alter the old matchmaking. It just adds a new way of matchmaking. Any influence this has in the game or community is just speculation.
It’s just you can’t reason with people that have an irrational hate on a tool.
All the arguments go like:
“The RDF is bad because it will remove the social aspect”
Somebody explains, how there is no social aspect for most players.
“But cross-server will make the people more toxic because of the anonymity”
Somebody explains, how something like a server community, that punishes bad behaviour doesn’t exist and people can be and are toxic on their own realm too without the RDF.
“But the world will die if everybody instantly teleports to the dungeon or stand in Dalaran queueing for the RDF.”
Somebody explains, that this is the state right now without RDF and the RDF would actually liven the world up, because they can do stuff while questing instead of refreshing Addons or the LFG-Tool every minute.
“But I can’t exclude people from my party anymore”
Somebody explains how this is a good change, because there’s no reason to exclude people in easy content and is actually a toxic behaviour.
“But it was released at the end of WotLK”
Somebody points out, that it was the second to last patch in the middle of the expansion. Just like the guild banks where introduced in the second to last patch in the middle of TBC. And nobody wanted them removed and everybody was fine with them being introduced earlier.
“But the RDF will destroy the social aspect of the game”
It’s so tiring, to refute the same nonsense claims over and over again, just because some people fail to see reason.
5 Likes
Somebody explains how there is no social aspect FOR THEM
Don’t tell me that something is impossible while I’m doing it. You’ll look like a fool.
Maybe don’t play on a Mega server then? On Celebras we had a very good server community. That’s a big part of why we wanted to keep our server.
I can do stuff in the world while looking for a group… what are you talking about? Once more trying to tell me something is impossible, while I’m already doing it?
If you are having a party at your house, and there is a guy who, when he goes to a party always gets drunk, breaks things, harrasses and annoys others and maybe even starts a fight, would you not exclude him from your party? Please tell me how excluding a toxic person is toxic behaviour.
But there were changes in TBC, why is it suddenly bad to change WotLK when you had no problems with earlier introduction of the guild bank before?
Your reasoning is VERY flawed…
1 Like
That’s just not true. Sharding allowed people to do whatever they wanted with no repercussions and that had nothing to do with RFD.
1 Like
No for most players, like I wrote it. The only exception are the people that don’t run random dungeons and shouldn’t have any say in this topic.
But I’ve already pointed this out enough in other posts.
I’ve been playing on a server with about 1500 horde accounts. It’s as small as it can get. Still no server community. Because even on a server with 1500 players you will never know more than maybe 5% of all the players. And 5% is already huge! Most players on the server don’t know 1% of the playerbase on the server.
You just play with your small circle of guildies and friends and it works out great, so you just assume the whole server is like this. But this assumption is wrong. It’s like when I say I know everybody in town, because I’m well connected with people of my age. But in fact it’s just a fraction of the population in the town.
I bet you couldn’t name 10 people, that have such a bad reputation, that somebody could log into your server, ask 100 random people and most of them would know those 10 as toxic players.
The server community is a fairytale. Maybe back in Vanilla when almost no people played WoW yet, it really did exist, but at no point in Classic there has been something like that. Outside maybe of RP realms with 90 players a faction.
Yes you can do it, but it’s a major pain to do grinding or questing while having to spam chat makros and refresh addons every minute.
So the RDF is still an improvement here.
Just that it’s not the people, that break things and harass people that get excluded, it’s the people, that don’t fit the profile of the host.
For every player that gets excluded for being toxic, there are probably 100 players getting excluded for their class.
And I rather run dungeons with an occasional toxic scumbag here and there, than to support this metaslave BS, that ruins the game experience for a lot of people.
You have a weird kind of logic my friend.
As I stated before the guild banks came earlier than they did in the original game. And I want the RDF to come earlier than the original game.
I am fine, if a good feature comes earlier. I am not fine with features they remove from the game.
But your whole post is exactly what I’m talking about. Everything has been explained in multiple posts already and yet you come here still trying to argue. And instead of bringing arguments of your own, you try to refute mine and you don’t even do it good.
3 Likes
The issue with “cross-server” sharding isn’t related to mega-servers. The game requires people to group with others to do the content that provides the best rewards so servers with more players gives people to best opportunity to find groups to do the content when players want.
If a player is scanning looking-for-group chat they can’t really focus on much else can they? How do you look for a group while doing dailies?
You don’t seem the understand what the OP is saying.
Here is what he said that you ignored:
He’s not talking about excluding toxic people he’s talking about excluding people who are new or aren’t already gear. I see people looking for other with phrases like “Need 4 pumper DPS for Kara inspection at A’dal”. PUGs are often looking for groups of people who already have the majority of the gear from the raid or dungeon. This causes group that don’t exclude to be filled with under-geared people since that’s the only group they could get into. Having nearly every pre-raid BiS item and still getting excluded from a group sucks.
A lot of people including myself don’t want the responsibility of putting a group together and managing people. I do it all day at work and I don’t want to do more work while I’m playing a game.
4 Likes
Well, according to all you RDF-haters there are sooooo many of you that it wouldn’t put you in any disadvantage at all. Other than the small matter of the RDF reward, which is very easily fixed as mentioned.
3 Likes
I absolutely agree with this. Building groups is a horrible experience. Often I tried to build groups for unpopular dungeons, where I still needed items from.
After hours of spamming LFG and refreshing my addons, my group never got full. I still had to disband it without even entering the dungeon.
Is this a game experience that needs to be cherished?
The problem here is, like I wrote in another post too, the people that complain about the RDF don’t know those problems, because most of them don’t run PUGs. They mostly run with their social circle and maybe add a random here and there. Still they think they know the community, even though they never interact with it.
8 Likes
Yep. I know a bunch of people that have no problems asking people to join their pug and no issues dealing with people and leading a group of strangers, but It’s just not for me.
1 Like
Well I didn’t mind asking people to join or to lead the group. At least not when I started to play TBCC, by now I hate it.
But that’s mainly because it takes much more time than the actual dungeon run and often it’s completely for nothing. If you want to do dungeons outside of the daily hc, most of the time it’s for nothing…
Edit:
The RDF guarantees dungeon runs and that’s the USP of this tool.
1 Like
Pretty much that.
Strange. I do random dungeons AND I have the social aspect still present. This might surprise you, but I have the latter BECAUSE of the prior.
You don’t even need to know all the players. You just need to know enough. And with 1500 that is still quite possible. And 1500 horde accounts doesn’t even mean 1500 70ers or active raiders.
Yes. I couldn’t. Because we actually don’t have them. Because on our realm it actually mattered what you did. So those people were rather rare to begin with. But yes, I could name a few people I wouldn’t want in my raid. Not ten, but that’s because I haven’t had that many bad experiences and that’s it.
Then bulid your own groups and don’t rely on others doing it.
I refuted all of them. And your argument was simply “It’s not there” while I see it clear as day that it is there. Your arguments are based on things that are not even true.
Did you now? Didn’t look that way to me…
Sorry to burst your bubble mate, but if your not straight up lying, you’re like 1 in a 1000 then. It is just that rare.
2 Likes
Yes, how often? Twice? It’s easy to claim to run random dungeons. Your arguments suggest you don’t. Or at least very rarely.
Ok:
- It’s 1500 players logged in WCL. So they are all 70s. Might be less actual players because of twinks, but there are also a lot of people that don’t log, so I think it will pretty much even out.
- Yes you don’t need to know all of them and with 1500 it’s impossible. Your statement just shows you’ll go yo any length just to prove your point, even if it’s making false claims. Which again explains the claim about you running PUG dungeons.
Assuming a playtime of 4 hours a day, every day. If you talk with every player for just 15 minutes, which is very brief to get to know somebody, you’ll spend 3 months doing nothing, but talking to people in the game. And even if you actually did this, you can’t seriously say, you would still know anything from player 47 after you’ve talked to player 1384. - The point of my argument, that you completely failed to address btw, was, that there is no server community, that punishes bad behaviour. Because for such a thing to exist the majority of people would have to be connected.
Yes of course they were all saints on your realm. I call BS. You can’t name 10 because there is no server community, that punishes bad behaviour. You just never heard of the toxic players and ninja looters on your server.
Plus the question wasn’t if you can name players you don’t want in your raid. The question is if you can name players, that have a bad reputation on your realm. Which you can’t. This proves my point.
The typical nonsense argument RDF-haters bring every now and then. Most dungeons I’ve ran were with groups I’ve build myself. As a rogue that’s the only way you get into dungeons with all those meta slaves in the community.
I am just waiting for the ultimate BS argument now: “Just be social”
You didn’t refute anything. You didn’t even address half of the points and to the other half you just made some unlogical nonsense statements.
This is exactly what I was talking about like 3 or 4 posts back. You are immune to reason, that’s why you say the same nonsense over and over again.
That’s why I stop replying to you now. My life is to short to play chess with pigeons.
6 Likes
Lol you smashed him to all the argument corners, ouch.
Nice!
3 Likes
I don’t care what it suggests. The facts are different.
So you’re basically saying you don’t have numbers that matter as they are open to interpretation.
My statement is simply true. I don’t know how it is with you, but on our server different guild or raid leaders talk to each other and these kinds of information usually gets spread amongst raid leaders. So from the assumed 1500 you only need to know the raid leaders. And even then you don’t even need to know them all to have a signifcant impact.
You did not understand what I was saying. Otherwise I can’t even explain this paragraph.
By the way, you can have conversations with more than one person at a time. So not only did you make a statement that was completely irrelevant to anything I said, you made one that was based on falsehoods aswell.
So? Maybe you should try to build that, instead of putting more feces on a pile of feces in the hopes of getting anything other than feces.
It doesn’t take a saint to behave decent. Black and white fallacy much?
I can. But I’m not falling for your bait. If you want a name, create a character on my realm, whisper me and I’ll tell you.
So you already have a solution. Why do you need another one?
I repeat myself again and again, because you simply are building strawmen or misunderstanding what I am even saying. So much, that I have to assume you’re doing it on purpose. And no matter how often you say “it’s not there”, it doesn’t change that it IS there.
Your entire post is nothing but a huge pile of dung, but this here:
This alone is a shoutout that you really have no clue.
No one but Blizzard has the actual exact numbers. Every single time someone of us players talk population numbers it is numbers taken from logs.
Now I’m done wasting my time on you.
2 Likes