I dont think its specifically about strawmanning, its more about they dont think you can be serious that the initial requirement to type 3 letters (“inv”) and accepting a port is more important than half of the player base having a time and mental consuming experience to find a group.
Of course you are correct that every player interaction is potentially a good thing and important for an MMORPG. There are so many things we could change into that direction. Imagine players can only invite other players to their group, that are next to them and there are no summons at all. Players would gather and travel together. Sounds great from an MMORPG perspective, but it was decided that it was too demanding and time consuming for players. In this aspect, RDF was introduced for the same reasons, why there are no group creation restrictions, global chats and why summoning stones were introduced: it was more important for players to find groups in a reasonable time and actually play dungeons together, than players having to meet up and travel together, because every player not joining a dungeon because of the required time to actually start the action, is a lost (social) multiplayer experience. The more dungeons are being played, the more players meet up, the more player interaction is possible.
We could also remove the auction house, remove flight paths, remove guild banks, make the world more dangerous to force player to play only in groups open world and disable global chat altogether. All those things can be argued to be good for the game from a social perspective. However, a more social game with more interaction is not always the better design decision, if the cost is the dis-encouragement of players to play (aspects of) the game.
I wont repeat all the stuff about the pro and contra about crossrealm or why RDF solves most of the gatekeeping issues we have today. If we focus on the social aspect only, of course you are correct that social interactions are a good thing and each player interaction should be encouraged.
However, it is arguable that the group building today and with the custom tool to come will encourage players to have more social interactions within the dungeon at a significant level. And, if this additional encouragement of typing “inv” or “port” outweighs the lost potential social interactions of those dungeon groups not happening, because the group search without RDF is too much of a pain for so many players.
If typing “Inv” or “Port” is too much of a requirement for someone, I’d say they are simply not fit to play MMORPGs.
But your post makes a good point. Pros and Cons. In another thread I explained why I am not in favor for the same treatment when it comes to Battlegrounds.
There the costs would just be too high, because you would not just have to find a group of your own, but you also have to find opponents. And with Alterac Valley, that is simply not happening. Here the cons clearly outweigh the pros.
But in case of Dungeons, I don’t see it that way. It is very easy to find a group. It might vary from server to server, but I didn’t find it too hard. Mostly because I had friends and guild mates that I could ask for help if I couldn’t fill a certain role for a dungeon. And this is what it’s all about. The game should encourage making friends and allies.
I would also very much be in favor of creating zones that are too harsh for solo players. I think it would add a lot of flavor to the ice crown glacier, if enemies would just be too many or too strong for one person to fight through it. Kind of like an open world dungeon. Having that kind of experience limited to one or two zones would still give plenty to do outside of them, but add something special to the game, that encourages grouping up.
Right on the nail there. How can we… anyone… really take that statement seriously?
You actually find it that important to /w someone “inv”, that you rather ruin the experience for all of us that want RDF then to loose that oh so important whisp???
So you have 1. RDF 2. Manual groups (i.e. TBCC) 3. “New” LFG tool
1 - You click on button, do dungeon.
2 - You spam “lf tank” or “inv dps” for 30 minutes, do dungeon.
3 - You click “join” or “accept/decline”, do dungeon.
Thats the only difference between these.
Can you tell me when exactly does that glorious "Social Interaction™ " happen ?
It sure as hell doesnt happen when forming the group, since telling everyone your life story in whisps as a requirement for inv doesnt count, as repeated many times here.
It clearly isnt small talk during dungeon, since that can happen during all 3 situations.
How is removing RDF going to help anything?
How can you call current TBCC situation healthy or OK.
How is retail tool that even removes the communication, that instead makes whole group forming a matter of 2 buttons, like some talent show, more classic then actual feature that was originally in the game?
Lets not even mention that disabling xrealm would be much easier than bringing in brand new tool or that old world dungeons are completely dead and abandoned so your “classic enjoyment” cant even happen since if there is someone who wants to see old dungeons they will have absolutely zero chance without RDF or that some people think that blizz actually cares about players …
Not mentioning that same “classic” players also asked for removal of disenchant button or to remove dual talents … topkek …
Okay, I think you are not getting it. For all of us arguing for RDF, and for all of the people using LFG channel and/or Bulletin board, there is no “talk to others to find group” other than “LFG Tank BF HC” and “Shadow inv”. That is literally all the “talking to others” our dungeon groups involved in the last year.
Well that and all the exhausting pep talk and hand-holding I described in previous post. That’s all the “social aspect” that majority of dungeon players ever get. Especially dps. Especially undergeared, “wrong class/spec” dps. I am a talkative mage in swp gear, and even I find it exhausting, how do you imagine it is for a blue rogue?
I swear I am not trolling you. I want it to click in your head, THERE ALREADY IS NO SOCIAL ASPECT IN 5 MAN DUNGEONS FOR US. Never was past Phase 3 of Classic or so when people got their vanilla prebis .
This part is not the problem at all. Everyone would be fine if it worked like that. The problem is that if the class/gear/spec isnt considered good, you have to type the same thing up to 100 times while checking lfg/bulletin every 5 seconds and you are still not guaranteed to find a group on that very day.
As you say yourself, its your own experience, because you tend to not look for full random groups, especially on new toons. Many others do have problems, and its not the communication part that they have problems with. Its the long and exhausting wait and to be turned down time and time again.
In the end you seem to not acknowledge the problems the RDF addresses, because you are not affected by them. This is why you value the additional interaction requirements over enabling all players to find groups in a reasonable time to actually meet other people and make friends in the process.
Because you aren’t trying nor you are interested in this aspect of the game. I understand, not everyone as the same expectation of the game.
But, i can clearly feel a difference when everyone in dungeon become a “random i’ll never see again and who can be replaced just by pushing a button” vs making manually formed groups.
“Just make your own groups manually then” but it doesn’t work like that and you know it. Normal humans will always chose the easiest/fastest path.
While that is correct, ironically this is also the reason players experience gatekeeping and ask for RDF to not get turned down due to class/spec/gear all day.
It also happens, alot, because of something related to what you said yourself:
People will take the path of least resistance. Wether it be a real differens or simply in their heads, people will demand the classes, gearscore of 9000, whatnot they can think of, to make their dungeon runs as fast and smooth as they possibly can… and keep everyone else out of their groups.
If you have the option between a full epic and a green/blue player, the choice remains obvious, even in wotlk. Players want the most efficient and fast runs possible. Those, who prefer to pick low geared strangers for max level content are a minority at best, if they exist at all. For lowlevel dungeons, the lack of players is usually the reason for players taking whatever. If there is a mage and a feral looking for a rampart run, the mage will get the spot at least 9 out of 10 times.
A huge problem here is just, that a lot of people have an irrational hate on the RDF. Even if it could cure cancer and get rid of famine in the world, they still would find reasons to argue against it. Not because it’s a bad tool, but because they just want to hate it. They need it as their scapegoat.
Lol a large part? You say it right in the first paragraph:
But seriously, come on. Is that little “inv” really that important to you personally? In all honesty that tiny little /w is quite insignificant.
How many times do I have to repeat that?
I think its time Blizzard acknowledge that they didnt hit the mark on this subject. I know the dream would be like when we played classic for the first time, and we all cooperated and were hyped for the return of vanilla. But sadly the social culture has changed, and evolved into Reserved HCs, pick snd choose on mega servers, and a literal dead levling experience in dungeons.
RDF wasnt perfect, but it would solve all of our issues with reserving, 226 average ilvl requirment dps, and underrepresented classes working uphill unless they play with friends.
And in a perfect world we are all friends, and take little Timmy for a ride to gear his fresh Enhancment shaman trough heroics, and have a laugh and tea together. But gbid oculus mounts, HR trinkets, minimal communication due to lower difficulty, the fact is that if Bigbrain the Partyleader have to pick in the new LFG tool, between little Timmy the enhancment shaman, and GigachadGodXXpwner69 with full bis, queing for his daily Badges, - Then Bigbrain the party leader will choose GigachadGodXXpwner69 over little Timmy.