You didnt read the sentence you quoted. I know of the current “social situation”. If noone would assume that not having RDF would have a significant positive impact on the social experience in the game, then there would be no arguments against RDF to begin with.
You are either inconsistent or you dont read the posts you are quoting and commenting. This might be the reason I dont understand what you are trying to say.
Noone except you was talking about elitists, and I still dont know how having elitists or not is relevant to the topic, since most low geared players and noobs are usually not elitists and these are the ones RDF is designed for. Elitists are usually committed and better geared and want to feel exclusive, so they prefer premade groups even with RDF around. However, maybe you have a completely different definition of what an elitist is, that it might be actually relevant to the topic.
I want to see other changes happen first before we even consider LFD. Blizz stated they are willing to do those changes. They don’t have a good track record, but the first month or more of an expansion is usually fine regardless, so there’s a grace period.
It wasn’t always a smooth experience to form dungeon groups. I don’t think it needs to be always.
Don’t know what you’re getting at. The current state of TBCC would be better off with cross-server dungeon finder. I want to believe Blizzard when they claim they will make the necessary changes to prevent the same situation from occurring. If not, then whatever, I’d be proven wrong.
The people who exclude people based on gearscore are the nerds. What’s so hard to understand about that? I don’t want to play with them, and I will kick them from groups if necessary.
It’s an argument in favor of diversity. I don’t want to play with elitists, but I also don’t think they should be banned or anything for being that. I would kick toxic elitists from my groups nevertheless. Some people just want the best loot and that’s fair I guess, but I’m not as concerned.
Lol. You think some opinions of the devs are proof of how the game should be at its best? Shadowlands said hi.
Theres not even an single objective research that the rdf is ruining social experience. Its all based on subjective opinions. And guess what the majority wants. Thats why ppl are finding it weird. But sure, defend the social exp from 14 ago that still lingers in your mind that still thinks its the same as back then.
Im sure the rdf will be added later in a phase since money speaks after all.
If there is a solution why not use it and instead wait and hope for something that isn’t going to happen anyways?
Especially since there is no downside to the dungeon finder anyway.
All the arguments against it come down to:
“It might or might not have ruined social aspects, that might or might not have existed in the game, so maybe it was one of the reasons Retail became what it is.”
Nobody can tell now if the RDF really did anything to the game at all because there were a lot of other things happening at the same time in-/ and outside of the game.
And even if we assume the RDF started a change in the community. It’s completely irrelevant because that’s in the past and can’t be changed. And you couldn’t just assume the RDF would do something like this to the community again, because the situation is completely different today and the community is completely different today. The social interactions, that people pretend to like in this game, don’t exist in the community. They only exist in small social circles.
There also is nothing stopping people from behaving like scumbags in dungeons today. I’ve already explained a lot of times, why a server community that punishes does not exist even on low pop realms in TBCC.
You just come here making the same claims that have been made a dozen of times already. And they also got debunked a dozen of times already.
So since you obviously don’t have any new arguments to bring to the table I am not going to hash and rehash everything, just because you are too lazy to read the comments here.
And this shows you have absolutely no empathy for the problems of others.
I’ve often spent hours trying to build a group and in the the end it was in vain.
If spending 4 hours building a group and still having to disband it in the end, without having even entered the dungeon, is just an experience, that isn’t smooth to you, than I don’t want to know what a bad game experience looks like in your opinion.
Why should I pay for a game, that I can’t play?
At this point everything has been said in this post already and we’re just running in circles here, so I will just mute this thread.
@Nicolay: Touché. My point was that where we draw the line for what’s “too convenient” varies from person to person. You were initially very fast to disregard the Raid Finder and using various arguments to explain why you think it is bad:
The Raid Finder does pretty much the same thing as the Dungeon Finder. Except raids have heroic and mythic difficulites, although in WLK it will be limited to just heroic. In retail there’s Mythic Dungeons so the problem isn’t so bad, but the Heroic version of dungeons in WLK is just an extension of normal mode. It’s trash content, admitted by the developers themselves as they reflected back on WLK.
You yourself expressed this:
If this is true for the Raid Finder should it not also be true for dungeons as well? If Blizzard had been a more competent developer in your view would you have supported an increase in challenge for WLK classic?
We don’t know how Blizzard will make Heroics more challenging. Maybe they’ll muck it up completely, and that is a concern that’s makes it completely rational to be in the #nochanges camp. But we also have historical evidence of how WLK played out. Saying that the Dungeon Finder did nothing to the social environment of the game is just blatantly false. It is also the reason why dungeons became trivial with a “journalist”-difficulty mode. Classic doesn’t need to be easier. Just look at the amount of guilds that is sweeping the floor with SWP in comparison to 2008.
The only argument you will accept as not being biased or a “subjective opinion” is the argument that supports your own beliefs. Also, in regards to the “majority” argument:
Both sides need to spend a little less effort trying to drown out the other side claiming that everyone they know – and by extension, “the majority of players” – agree with their point. You shouldn’t need to invoke a silent majority if you can make an articulate and salient point.
Doing what? You didn’t specify. I’ll assume you’re referring to this part:
And if that is what you mean then my answer to you is no. Just because I don’t change my stance it does not mean I cannot see the validity in points that the opposite side of the debate brings up. Anyone can check my history to see that that is true.
What problem do you intend to solve? It runs deeper than not getting into dungeons.
If this really what you think I think? No wonder we can’t get past the initial points of this discussion.
Why not add everything else that’s in retail as well then? Since “it’s impossible to know”
I’m not begging for retail to remove LFG where did you get that from
Source: trust me bro
There is. Like I explained earlier if someone is a scumbag they have to face the consequences of acting like one. The “gatekeeping” means me and many others can choose who to play with.
Your only argument this far is “we can’t know how it will turn out, and that means I’m right.” I don’t consider it a debunk.
Understanding what someone else is arguing doesn’t mean I agree with it. There has to be a name for this fallacy.
Then you haven’t been paying attention to what I’ve written in the first place.
OK, it should be fairly straight forward. I say, like Blizzard, that if dungeons keep being relevant past the Naxx patch then there will be a reason for players to enter dungeons. That means you won’t have to wait for hours to get something going (plus, people have dual spec).
If you had scrolled down a liiiiittle bit more in that post you’d know the answer. You can read what I wrote. I have a proposed solution, but all you can think of is LFD to fix these issues you are experiencing.
It is different precisely in the fact it creates it’s own difficulty below the existing raid difficulties whereas RDF just forms a cross-server group for the current normal or heroic dungeon. It then arguably led to simplification of heroic dungeons in later patch of Cataclysm, but that is irrelevant to me. I dont even argue against Raid finder really, I don’t care, it is not aimed at me. I argue for Dungeon finder in Wrath classic. Frankly, I don’t much care what happens to Classic OR Blizzard past ICC. The company is as good as dead to me.
If
If they were a more competwnt developer, we wouldn’t even be having this thread most likely.
I don’t really want challenging or relevant heroics to be honest. That would have to entail a complete rework or Wrath reward structure. The heroic rewards would have to be competitive with current raid tier, and consequently just as challenging, and thus anyone not in BiS raid gear would be completely barred from them, much like I assume they are in mythic+ of retail.
I don’t even particularly care about heroics, they are mostly irrelevant in Wrath. You can basically skip them for Naxx/Sarth/whatever the raid was in Wintergrasp 10 man. And good riddence, I won’t miss running a pointless heroic repeatedly for a rare drop pattern. My main gripe with cutting RDF is how it is absolutely vital for leveling dungeons. That is 90%+ of it’s usefulness in Wrath. Heroics are largely pointless except daily badge reward.
All this talking in circless is just self indulgence anyway. Blizzard is lying through their teeth. They can’t get it to work and want to save face. I can’t wait to kill Algalon and Yogg 0 when it’s current and cancel my sub and never give Blizz another cent. I’ve been cured of my nostalgia quiet thoroughly. Maybe in another decade I’ll play Nicolay on Wrath private server with RDF enabled, or maybe not. I am completely done with this trash company that hides behind a name of a good game developer form 20 years ago.
I mean, the difference is that raids are the core PvE experience in WotLK and what guilds and communities are built around. Dungeons aren’t, and making it harder for people to run those won’t change it - it will just make less people play dungeons and make life that much harder for newer players and alts.
Want dungeons to be more to the center of the gameplay experience? Then start by having them drop rewards on par with raids.
How is this meaningfully different from the “Darksouls easy mode” discussion? If they add or don’t add an easy mode, some players will feel excluded. Blizzard made their blog post and they clearly stated that what Classic is supposed to be (read: they expansion they will release) isn’t in alignment with the philosophy of all these pro LFD-ers.
Edit: I realize that the arguments people are making doesn’t concern this in the first place. But that requires arguments that I can’t easily falsify though official Blizzard statements. You think Wrath should have one-button stops for dungeons, raids, and whatnot? Make your argument, but don’t pretend it’s what Blizzard has in mind.
I cannot answer this question, as I do not know what is “Darksoul easy mode”?
All I can see is you telling us Classic is meant to be …
And I do not like people telling me HOW I should play this game. I do not care about RDF or not, but I most decidedly oppose to you telling me how I have to play Classic. Thank you.
EDIT to answer to your edit:
I’m not interested in Blizz’s arguments (not in this discussion at least) I am telling you that thrpughout all your posting you’re telling me how I am supposed to play. This is what I do not like. This is what I’m opposing!
What does this even mean?
I want Wrath Classic to be exactly as Wrath was the first time around, which is not going to happen, as Blizz builds Wrath Classic on 3.3.0.
But, and this is my point: I do not like YOU to tell ME how I should play WoW!
The problem is how Blizzard deviated from the original, pre-2019 goal of restoring what was no longer available (i.e. the niche previously occupied by pservers) in favor of rolling an alternate, “oldschool” progressive version of WoW that nobody but Vanilla Classic+ fans asked for. At the end of the day, the only result they’ll get is alienating all the players who dislike both Vanilla and Retail and causing them all to go back to pservers, just as it slowly happened from 2010 onwards.