Is Sylvanas supposed to be stupid or is it just bad writing?

Alright, here goes: I’m finding it extremely difficult to enjoy WoW’s cosmic mythology when the spotlight and front stage belong to Sylvanas, a character that should have been retired expansions ago along with Thrall, and perhaps with Jaina and Tyrande as well.

Especially when Sylvanas is not portrayed like a misunderstood mastermind, but rather like a complete idiot.

First and foremost: Nathanos. She left him behind on Azeroth while knowing that everyone and their grandma were gunning for her smug face, yet she didn’t expect them to kill Nathanos?!
You’d expect that she’d have accepted the fact that Nathanos was a goner the second she left him behind, thinking this was a necessary compromise for achieving her supposed plan. But her face when Tyrande told her she whacked him was priceless. “nAtHaNoS?” She clearly didn’t expect the person that had been hunting her for over a year to find him? lmao

Secondly: Her dumb remarks that the writers probably thought were smart, stuff like "High priestess, night warrior" and "A king without a throne" etc. It was like Jack Sparrow in Pirates of the Carribean 5, looking at stuff and stupidly naming them. *looks at duck, recoils * "Duck."

Lastly, the Jailer: I can’t even get how bad this was. So you commited mass genocide to fuel the engines of a clearly evil dark overseer that is clearly responsible for the creation of the lich king aka the source of your misery and you don’t even register him as a bad guy?
Then you go the extra mile to serve him in his creepy chain-filled pervert cave and do his bidding, and only when he says the word “serve” you start to understand what’s going on?
YOU WERE LITERALLY ON A FIRST NAME BASIS, DID YOU NOT KNOW HIS PLANS?
This takes some serious effort to achieve.

And then of course we spare her and she is “good”. I gotta hand it to Blizzard, I am genuinely confused as to their way of thinking. i wonder if this turns out to be a delusional dream and we wake up in Ny’alotha to find Azeroth overtaken by the void. Nothing can surprise me in this story now.

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I like to pretend that Sargeras missed his sword stab at end of Legion and the story ended there, everything since then has been abysmal story wise

If they can retcon the lore, so will I

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Well tbh it’s good that old characters stay relevant. But 3 xpacks of sylvanas was too much imho (altho it’s imo part of the reason why we got these amazing cinematics, it greatly reduced the number of high quality models to 1 orcs 2 human & 3 sylvanas)

Idiot who repeatedly won against us so… What about us then ? :cry:

He was fine for half of BFA so I guess his orders were “stay hidden, I’ll sort this out no worry dawg” and … The plot Armor tragically failed him because the playerbase spent 2y begging Blizz to finally smash his smug face.

He’s supposed to be the number 2 hunter in the world, staying hidden is part of his resume

Well it gives us fuel for lore speculations so why not

This was a massive let-down. But don’t worry, she’ll save Anduin with the power of friendship, they’ll marry once they go back to Azeroth and We’ll have Queen Sylvanas Wrymm, rightful queen of Stormwind and Lordaeron. They’ll have undead horses pulling a princess carriage it’ll be glorious.

More seriously tho I think this was an emotional response, kinda like with Saurfang. The lunatic vilain which goes from evil mastermind to blood crazed beast in a matter of seconds when you pull the wrong cords.

What I’m interested in is how quickly she’ll be forgiven. The salvation arc was expected, and now that she got her soul back I guess it’s time for sad sad sylvanas to atone for her sins by… Being an happy lil’ elf and being helpful to the cause ?

Honestly can’t see a future where she is denied her redemption, altho I would love to see this.

Sylvanas : “Hey guys I’m back I was kinda insane ever since arthas you know…”

Random space marine passing by : “DIE YOU FILTH ! FOR THE EMPEROR !!!”
[Proceeds to tear sylvanzs appart and burn her remains in holy fire]

The end, that’s all folks.

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I think the hole thing is more complicated like just bad storywriting, we have to rember, that anyone who has used the helm of domination has more or less been under a full mindcontrol, that has weakend over time, Nerzhul was first, he broke free, Arthas was totaly undercontroll for a while, but even he was able to partial free him self, when we killed him he was not totaly under the Jailers influence anymore, holding the scourge back, Bolvar even stated him self that he was in constant battle to keep him self sane, and probably only reason he was able to do it was Alextrhazas flame empowering him.

Sylvanas killed her self at Icecrown, though her soul was split in half already buy frostmourne at that point, so the Jailer had some controll of her, though after killing her self at icecrown, the jailer pretty much took full control, and had been leading her all the way up until now, now why did she change heart all of an sudden, a few reasons.

  1. she actualy didnt even realice the jailer was controlling her, she thought they where partners.
  2. I think reason she started to doubt her self, in the maw already was due to her beeing closer to her soul that the jailer had, it could have influenced her.
  3. due to this, and seeing he was not gona let Anduin go, she realiced, or woke up to reality of what was about to happen, little to late though.

though I am intrested in seeing what happens to her now, when she got her soul back, will she become truly alive again or what happens.
techincaly if you get your soul and have your body still, though she kind of have a rental body, she could become mortal again.

I’d say watch the Taliesin and Evitel video on the new cinematic. He explains it quite well, but I’ll post a version here.

We have to remember that the Jailer did not give himself that name, the ones who imprisoned him did according to the message left behind by the Primus. It was revealed in this very patch that the Primus used Domination magic to bind Zovaal to the Maw, and it is heavily implied that this is Zovaal’s first interaction with the magic: being its victim. Therefore Sylvanas would find a way to relate to Zovaal: he was defeated and condemned to a fate he felt he did not deserve (imprisonment) like how she was defeated outside Silvermoon and condemned to a fate she did not feel she deserved (undeath). One thing I can safely bet on in the next patch is Sylvanas will detail how she and Zovaal first met, and how he managed to convince her to join his side. He will likely use this very reasoning to have her understand why he wanted to break free of his chains, and to dismantle the current state of things and get revenge on the ones who wronged him, much like how Arthas had wrong Sylvanas.

Concerning Nathanos, at the end of the pre-SL book, Sylvanas had tasked him with finding a way to kill Bwonsamdi due to the problems he would pose as a death god, so it seems Nathanos actually defied this order by just staying at his home.

And concerning Sylvanas’ willingness to slaughter and permit Zovaal’s enslavement of others for the sake of her own self preservation, you have to remember that this has been a staple of her character since her creation. You can ask Mug’thol, Snarlmane, Blackthorn, the various humans and other creatures she possessed and manipulated in the WC3 campaign, not to mention the many she slaughtered. Varimathras even compared her to being a Dreadlord due to her scheming, she saying that the humans were merely a means to an end for taking down Balnazaar and Detheroc. This ruthlessness never left her and has thrived in SL.

But in the T&E video, Taliesin brings up a point that is very true: he envisions the classic scenario of a lady and her boyfriend, and she’s been told that he’s been cheating on her. She’s in denial and when the boyfriend denies it, she accepts it and carries on, truly wanting to believe everything is okay but has that lingering doubt in her mind. That she well and truly wants to believe that things will be okay, even if evidence keeps coming that it will end badly.

This is a very human and very relatable trait that I am sure a lot of people on this forum have experienced: a desperate clinging of hope to something that may not be true just so you can be happy. It could be the same for Sylvanas: she truly believed at the start that Zovaal intended for the system of death to be freed of its lack of justice, and mixed with her already-established ruthlessness, she would be more than willing to kill thousands of people because it would again be setting them “free” in her eyes. Not to mention that considering she has enslaved people in the past (Mug’thol, Blackthorn, Snarlmane etc), she would be perfectly okay with this. Even if she viewed the enslavement and torment as temporary, it would be worth it to allow freedom in the afterlife. Like how she was enslaved and tormented under Arthas’ control, and was freed later on.

It was only due to Anduin that she began to have second thoughts, and it was Zovaal himself that finally pushed her over the edge. She desperately wanted to believe she was making things right, but she was consumed by her own self preservation.

As for Zovaal creating the Lich King, I have a theory that Zovaal told her that it was the Primus who was mainly to blame for all that. Blizz themselves said that Maldraxxus was based off the blighted lands of the Scourge, and the Maldraxxi have necromancers, liches and abominations at their command like Arthas did. We also know now that the Primus can use Domination magic, and the runes on Zovaal’s body are more than likely the Domination runes that bound him to Torghast. And we also know that it was indeed the Primus who had the designs for Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination. The Jailer may have made them, but it was the Primus who designed them. For what end, we still don’t know.

That’s my take on it, on how Zovaal convinced Sylvanas to join his side up until the end of the raid.

Well, the forsaken ARE susceptible to brain rot are they not? I imagine the people that simp so hard for them probably do too, so… both!

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So Blizzard wanted players to make choice and live with the consequences of said choices but are not living with the consequences of theirs. It’s just horse crap writing.

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No. Blizzard wanted to create a story character in Sylvanas, who would do some terrible things in order to invoke a certain kind of emotion within the player.

And then ultimately present you with a very… human question.

Well she wasn’t the brightest candle in the chandelier to begin with… I mean even back in WC3 she managed to give away how to breach the deffenses of Quel’Thalas
“HA-ha (like Nelson) you never open the magical doors, you will never find the three keys!”
“What… keys exactly?”
"Stoooopid human, you know! Those magical elven keys you need to open the door’
“And they are… well hidden I’m sure. Oh woe, I will never find them…”
“Exactly, we hid them well in our shirens around the forest, so Hah!”
“Thank you…?”
“Wait wut?”
I guess it was unavoidable since she never earned her tittle of “Ranger General” :thinking:
That run in to Arthas’s sword was at least nice and acrobatic… so…
But yeah
Sylvanas actually not the victim of bad writing, she was always a spolied brat, vain as a cat, pridefull and lack of… any meaningfull intelligence or tactical insight

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The only emotion I have thinking aboot Sylvanas is that she should die and does not deserve a redemption arc.

She’s been serving Vin Diesel… Sorry, the jailer yet she complains that she did. How ironic.

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Great! Remember that emotion. It is important.

I feel like they just don’t explain enough of the story events in-game, and just put too much important lore, character, story points in say books and the short stories.

I mean sure it’s a bit hard to show ingame what a character is feeling, thinking etc. tho they’ve been doing really good facial animation that gives an idea. In the end it’s not really enough.

I don’t see why it’s important. I mean, many people want her dead because she does not deserve any kind of redemption. If she gets one then it’s just lazy writting.

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Yes, she is a stupid, evil and boring char. At this point I don’t care what happens to her, I don’t care at all, I just hope that they will finally finish with her and turn to something else.

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Because there’s a message behind the story. Something to reflect on. Not about Sylvanas, but about yourself. And that requires an emotional investment from you. And you clearly have that. Now it’s just a matter of whether Blizzard can get you to the point where you reflect on the story message.

Tfw she will powerslide into mind controlled Anduins sword to ‘break’ the jailers possession, or control… or whatever.

The game often makes us make stupid decisions too. It’s not like we have any choice in where the story goes. Like the quest line that took us to Crucible raid for example.

It wasn’t believable that an attempt to assassinate the Warchief of the Horde would go unpunished during Legion. It wasn’t believable that Sylvanas would let all the betrayal slide in BfA and it’s not believable that she wouldn’t see through Zovaal’s plans.

Is Sylvanas supposed to be stupid or is it just bad writing? Or are we purposefully reading everything with a negative mindset and missing quite a few important points?

There is nothing in the cutscene suggesting she didn’t know or think Nathanos was in danger, Nathanos has been on the frontlines since forever, he could’ve died at any moment in the last expansions. She’s just surprised he’s dead because she didn’t yet know. If a letter comes telling you your soldier son died in battle, I think you’re allowed to make a face, even if you knew it was a possibility.

They are smart: those cutscene are short and need to condensate as much info as possible, so Blizzard writes dialogues in such a way as to convey multiple informations at the same time. In this case, with a few words, Sylvanas is presenting the characters for those who don’t know the lore by heart (which is a lot of people among WoW players) and also expressing her disdain or mockery, which defines the character’s personality and her relationship with other characters, all with a couple of words. It is smart.

This is not how it went, Sylvanas is shown having doubts in previous cutscenes, we have no reason to believe she was surprised when she learnt of Zovaal’s intentions. In fact, she didn’t make a surprised face in the last cutscene, she made a resigned face, like she was partly waiting for it to happen. That line only confirmed the doubts she already had.
Anduin had already confronted her about Zovaal and her lingering hope, and she didn’t reply “no, you’re wrong, what do you mean, he’s a nice fellow and I’m all on board”, she instead told him “I’ve not come this far to faulter now”. Anduin’s words got to her, but her goal was more important, and Zovaal was the only way she had of achieving it. She had doubts, but she had to risk it anyway.
Nor did she do his bidding, Zovaal is never shown giving her orders, Sylvanas is never shown accepting them, he didn’t bind her, she freely associated with him. We knew in reality the relationship wasn’t equal, but we’re viewers, by default we know more than the characters do. For example, we know Zovaal is the BBEG of the expansion, while Sylvanas hasn’t seen the posters.

Thinking of Sylvanas in terms of “good” and “evil” is bound to produce misunderstandings. She always had, in her mind, good intentions, and she’s always committed ruthless and cruel acts to reach her goals. Always, since W3. And she’s not “good” now. She’s been fighting for “justice” all along as far as she’s concerned. Having her soul back is a way more nuanced affair than “turning good”. Maybe she’ll be able to have feelings again, maybe she’ll be able to grow past her past traumas, maybe she’ll be less desperate in her actions, maybe she won’t change personality at all.

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To be honest all the big bads in WoW are absolute imbeciles.

But Sylvanas is especially poorly written.

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Not like the heroes, including Us are better… sharpest knives in the drawer we are not…
Still can’t belive we helped Xal’atath… and she is just the tip of a big, really big… huge iceberg of the heroic stupidity