I see.
Also the lives of those who have sinned?
Were a bunch of civilians who love nature, peace, and worshipping their goddess sinners to you?
5 Likes
Is that a question to me?
What in the f is that switch in the question ?
Obviously some lives don’t deserve to be saved. But those in Teldrassil certainly didn’t deserve to die in such a way. However, sysy sinned so much that even death appears as a soft punishment for her sins and crimes.
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How do you draw the distinction?
C’mon now. Don’t back out when it gets uncomfortable.
You’re quick to blabber and criticize Blizzard, but when faced with scrutiny you clamp your mouth shut like an oyster.
Why not take the story a bit serious and reflect on the message Blizzard are trying to convey?
You probably know it already, you just don’t want to acknowledge it.
The woman is extremely vain and proud and was so even in life. She didn’t so much as fall hook line and sinker as willingly signing up to something she believed to be a partnership of equals. Yeah sure, dumb and naive as all hell but consider for a moment that she was willing to put her faith in a Dreadlord under the assumption that she would be able to exert control over the big bad demon from outer space and you quickly realize that she’s got some history with this.
Kinda like how Azshara signed a deal with space satan and later N’zoth in the false belief that they’d let her rule alongside/under her in this new imagined world of hers. The story beat ain’t that new but the difference this time is that this big evil grey woman has been a thorn in the side of half the playerbase for over a decade and a stick in the butt for 50 % of the other half since 2019 and so the emotional investment that players have in her demise eclipse everything else in her story.
Any cinematic that didn’t result in her death would have been mass disliked down to hell. It was always inevitable that this would be the reception because of how badly BfA was received by the community and in particular the Alliance and the very vocal Night Elf base. Tyrande could have entered the stage dressed as Sailor Moon and vaporized Sylvanas with her moon tiara and moon crystal and many of the detractors would probably have prefered that despite how overtly stupid and nonsensical that would have been in comparison to the story that is now being told.
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I’m not backing out.
It’s obvious that sylvanas has killed so many people, has done so many evil things that make her an absolute evil char. On the other hand, those who died in that tree did nothing of that kind, otherwise, they’d be dead prior to that. Or even, children dying is just awful because children don’t intentionnally do evil things (I know they do, but it’s unlikely for a child to intetentionnaly kill someone else).
I haven’t shuted up. You just assumed.
Well, that kind of message is typical from Hollywood/California coast. If the message is that you can mass genocide people and get away with that, then let it be. So we should be forgiving IRL dictator that commited mass murders, since that’s the kind of message being conveid by this story.
It’s cristal clear for many sympvanasses that she did nothing wrong. But actually, many players want her dead because she’s pure evil character.
5 Likes
Fair enough. Mea culpa.
You’re focusing on a specific, but that’s not what I asked.
I asked what it means to be good.
Then you told me that Sylvanas was evil because she had killed a lot of innocents.
So I asked you again what it means to be good.
Then you told me that it’s saving lives instead of killing.
So then I asked you if it also meant saving the lives of those who have sinned.
Then you said that obviously some lives don’t deserve to be saved.
So then I asked you how you draw the distinction.
And now you’re telling me about Sylvanas again.
I’ll ask another question.
Does the country you live in have the death penalty? And if no, why not?
My country does not and I quite wish we kept that because a prisonner cost 5k per month. Knowing some of them are mass murderers in the name of a god, I quite feel bad knowing my tax is paying them things I can’t afford my self, like private gym room, PS5 and xbox. Yes, I’m talking aboot those who murdered 150 innocent people in the bataclan, they deserve to die. Or at least, not costing 5k euros a month.
The distinction is quite easy, innocents are by definition not dead in wow, since we’re killing all of the bad guys. That’s how wow universe works, if we don’t kill an NPC then it’s a good guy.
Aboot the distinction then someone that didn’t harmed somebody else obviously does not deserve being called “bad”. And the reason I’ve brought sysy on the matter of “distinction” is that she’s my scale of evil in the wow universe.
Okay. But generally speaking, why do you think your country and a lot of other countries no longer have the death penalty?
I mean, in the medieval ages the local town square would always be a great place to go if you wanted to watch someone get hanged or get their head chopped off.
As a society, why don’t we do that anymore? Why is it frowned upon?
Because western societies tend to believe in reinsertion, which I personnaly don’t.
Again, those bataclan murderers deserve to die, since they don’tt fit in modern societiy because of their religious believes.
Because it’s feels unfair. As I’ve said, I’m a tax payer and it feels bad that my tax money is being wasted on giving those people things they should not have in the first place. Tax money should be spent on relevant things like public hospitals, infrastructures. I sometimes think jails in my country should be like in Japan, ie only 9 square meter of space, with no modern convenience and not being allowed to say 1 single damn word.
No. No. No!
Google article 3 of the human rights.
Tell me what it says.
So those who murdered 150 innocent people should live a long life, playing video games, while victims’ family have to live with them loosing someone they loved ? That’s basically human torture, in a way.
(I’ve read that article and I understand what it means. Isn’t terrorism a form of mental torure?)
Sigh. 
To be good is to show love and compassion for life.
That is at the heart of every major religion. It is the core of the laws our societies are built on.
It is the virtues we champion as good.
It is what the story is about.
Which I do…With people that share my western values, like not killing someone who don’t believe in the same god than you (I could say god means imaginary friends)
If this story brought that message in such a awful way that’s even worse in the end.
Because I don’t see any compassion for life by killing thousands of people that did nothing wrong in the first place.
Don’t you see what I mean all that long ?
You are wrong here. The thing is even if Nathanos got killed he’d go to her in the Shadowlands, he even says that before he gets decapitated. I think she was surprised that he didn’t come to her when he got killed, which could have meant that the Jailor was keeping him somewhere else.
The idea here, is that she tried to break a system that she considered flawed. It was to her benefit of course, nobody can deny that. She didn’t do it out of some sense of selflessness, she did it because the system was wronging her. And evil or not, at least to some degree, she was right about the system being broken, I mean it was already pretty screwy when you arrive in the Shadowlands, the covenants that were meant to oversee this system being a mess and the leaders of the respective realms being gone, corrupt or simply powerless. Remember that you have to go through each area and fix their issue that have all covenants on the brink of ruin.
Anyway, I think what they are trying to do with Sylvanas, to try make you see things from her perspective, which is actually what they did in the cinematic where she turns of the Jailor, is just too complicated for many people not to mention the ones that have a hate obsession and murder fetish for Sylvanas.
All in all she’s not a better or worse character than many other WoW characters, she just gets damaged in the delivery of her story which is what happened to many of the WoW characters, sadly.
You misunderstood this entire part. It’s clearly a reference to the beloved and well received movie “Batman vs Superman” which has a solid 28% score on rotten tomatoes.
“MARTHA? WHY DO YOU SAY THAT NAME???”
“SERVE? WHY DO YOU SAY THAT WORD???”
In general, I like to imagine that the WoW team is just being kind and giving everybody involved, even the janitor, the intern Kevin, and that one cleaning lady who crashed an entire server by tumbling over a chord once, a chance at creating their own storyline in WoW, whether that is the main story of an expansion or just some side quest is obviously, like Ion loves it so much, entirely random. Everybodies name is put in a giant hat and then Ion draws name after name and pins them from left to right on a giant board, with every part that needs a story being filled.
In the end, we just had bad luck with the intern Kevin being responsible for the entirety of BFA and the Shadowlands story, but there’s no way professional writers would manage to put this on a piece of paper and be happy with it.
Professionals have standards after all. And well, WoWs story does not. Not since quite some time anyway.
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I don’t see how the story eludes you or why you struggle to reflect on the messages it bombards you with.
Let’s take the Shadowlands.
You come there and the first thing you’re faced with is The Maw. A literal hell of despair and misery.
And then The Jailer. A guy with a gaping hole in his chest where his heart should be.
Then you come to Oribos. The place is crawling with Caretakers who drone about and seem ambivalent to the outcome of events – it’s all The Purpose.
Then you go to Bastion and are faced with The Kyrian who purge their memories in order to avoid having any feelings of their past and indoctrinate themselves into simply following The Path.
Then you go to Revenreth and it’s filled with Venthyr who take sadistic pleasure in torturing souls.
And then you meet the Arbiter who seemingly judges souls with complete authority.
This feels completely wrong, doesn’t it? Like something is missing. This afterlife is all screwed up and it doesn’t make any sense.
It’s love.
There’s no love in the Shadowlands.
Our ideal of an afterlife is one filled with love and compassion.
The Shadowlands is none of that.
That’s the wrong we have to right.
So here comes Sylvanas. She’s done a lot of bad things. Now she’s been defeated. She might even repent what she has done. And maybe she asks for forgiveness.
Then what?!
How can we forgive her for all that she has done?!
Then there’s Uther.
Uther has also found his way to the Shadowlands. And he is in pain. Emotional pain. Because of Arthas.
Arthas killed King Teranas, burned down Lordaron, and murdered Uther himself!
So Uther throws Arthas into The Maw, convincing himself that it is justice to do so.
But Uther realizes that it is not justice to punish – It is vengeance.
And seeking vengeance does not heal Uther’s pain, it just leads him down a dark path.
Little spoiler ahead, but Uther gets the other half of his soul back and finds out that in order to restore his soul and heal himself, he has to come to terms with that which causes him pain.
Arthas.
So he relives his past memories and comes to terms with them.
He finds his peace.
How? Through compassion and forgiveness rather than hate and vengeance.
And so we are faced with Sylvanas and the anger and hate she has sown in our hearts.
What is the good thing to do?
Love. Compassion. Forgiveness.
But it’s really hard. It’s really hard to forgive Sylvanas, let alone have any kind of love for her!
But that’s what it means to be good.
And it’s not easy to be good.
It sounds easy, but the doing is really hard.
And that is Blizzard’s story message.
What it means to be good.
2 Likes
pandaland never happend.
deathwing never farted on azeroth.
garrosh never had a tantrum.
wow died when the lich king died.