Is this it for Ferals?

I see.

You are right, i did not expect the buff duration to be that long but it’s 30 seconds.
I did prefer the older version cause i liked the interaction with regrowth and allowing energy to regen rather than just waiting, but this is not as bad as i initially thought. Not as good, but not terrible like i thought.

It might require an minimum amount of haste for the dots not to drop off, but it doesn’t flow well like the previous iteration did. I really don’t like how it feels. It’s bringing complexity for no good reason.

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so they break our gamedesign to change a talent that was ok.
Funny, when you level a druid on exile reach and overclip you moonfire to soon, they npc say you are doing it WRONG.

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Basically any spec that has an automatically re-applied slow. Rogue, DK, Mage, Hunter (Tar Trap) etc, non-exhaustive list. Or anything with a Root + Snare that can be used in quick succession.

Almost every single comp you meet will have one of these classes in it.

Exactly. Feral was designed around having strong sustained damage, CC and mobility.

Our CC, mobility and sustained damage got absolutely wing clipped in Legion/BfA and replaced with burst damage “only”.

Other classes did not see this kind of wing clipping and as such are in a much better shape than Feral.

This is all disregarding damage/healing tuning of course. Just design.

The fact that a talent requiring a strict DPS rotation with a 5sec timing window will probably become mandatory in PvP (it looks like we’re going back to being more bleed based, which makes BT much better).

Well, that is actually extremely jarring, that and the fact that there is a 5 second window to hit as well.

Old BT was not OK.

sure it was. Explain me why it wasnt?
Its was easy to understand. Use your Predatory Swiftness proc and use Regrowth, after that use 2 abilities to buff them. Hell they even balanced the survivibality around using your procs for regrowth to heal yourself.
Just play without and you will see your hp drop like ice in the sahara.

it wasnt complex or difficult to understand.
Now dont come with “but they forced to use use the proc when they want and not when i want to heal someone”. 99% of all players only heal them self or maybe with a targettarget macro the tank. and last one is not working when you are to far away from the tank.

i’m playing feral since Wotlk and had never ever a problem with the old BT.

I’ll bet my great grandmother’s ashes that they change BT before or after SL launches or it will be a dead talent.

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  • Forced used of PS in an extremely small window in order to do acceptable DPS, not when you actually want to root/heal
  • Healing to do DPS is completely backwards
  • Overly complicated
  • Extremely susceptible to purging

Yeah, reading a spell tooltip is easy. Using it on the other hand, is a different story.

No they didn’t. They balanced the survivability around you using PS and your defensives when you need to, not when the DPS rotation forces you to (i.e. when you don’t need the heal).

There is nothing hindering you from throwing a PS on yourself when you’re not topped, without BT. Feral is not a GCD capped spec. At most you’re losing out on a few heals during Berserk, if you’re getting lucky with clearcasting procs.

However, when you pick BT and you can’t even heal yourself when the damage spikes occur / root enemies when it’s clutch, because that’d be a DPS loss. You’re mostly just doing overhealing or otherwise useless healing (causing someone else to overheal).

Not difficult to understand. But to execute and play, it was nothing but awkward and annoying.

Compared to other classes/specs old BT is most definitely “complex”. You’re living on another planet.

I’ve played Feral since vanilla, and I’m a better player than you. And I’m telling you BT is and was problematic.

Now why does our experience matter at all?

Well, get prepared to lose your grandmother’s ashes.

They might change it, but this version that’s on beta right now is not a “dead talent”. And while I know you’d love it, they most certainly won’t revert it to what’s on live right now.

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ah yes they dont change things, like in legion or the shadow rework.

and no you arent a better player. btw. this has nothing to do with unterstanding how things work and this BT is a dead talent.

i knew this was coming. its a lame point. Extremly small? PS last 12sec.

dont balance pve around pvp. it was never a good option.

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Its not a strict rotation really any 3 builders in 5 seconds, that’s not hard or strict. Doing it in 5 seconds? That’s not hard either, well I’ve not had any problems doing it on beta. I’m not sure It will be mandatory in PvP either.

Yeah I get clipping problem that is why I’ve made feedback posts about it and offered up suggestions, will anything be done about it? I doubt it.

Well that’s the problem isn’t it, lots of people said the talent wasn’t OK and blizz agreed. And whilst I appreciate you liked it I thought it was very clunky, the new is much smoother but not without its problems.

I agree with you about clipping DoTs and I’ve made feedback posts about it but to say they have broken our game design is just sky is falling in nonsense and I suspect is beneath you.

If BT was vulnerable to purge, well so is the new one even more so cause of the longer duration. Old one was consumed in 2 globals. It doesn’t fix the problem, it makes it worse.
The heal could be cast on anyone and it still procced, it isn’t something that was blocked before.

The new BT does the following: Instead of 1 cycle, it takes 2 combo point cycles. This means, you got to track it. If you got targeted by a mechanic, or stunned or whatever it made you move, it may fall off completely before you get it’s effect.

Second, it only buffs finishers.

Third and in practice, it clips dots or require X amount of haste to be kept in order to not clip.

Fourth, it changes nothing on the rotation. I honestly don’t even see how this helps anything on PvP, but the PvE player will just stand there and do nothing until energy is regenerated. Not doing anything but wait is boring.

Why? What does this new design solve? Cause it just made everything worse.

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My feral thread is the biggest , i want you guys to share it around twitter or anywhere if you want feral to change , give your oppinion of what you want changed in SL for feral , keep the thread alive and blizzard might see it , i would also love to get this thread over to US somehow

Post your oppinions and discussions it to keep it blooming!

#FixFeral

How… can you… not get this? PS lasts 12sec, but the timing window for when you have to use it in order to maximize your DPS is 1 GCD + potential pooling, with BT.
Don’t make yourself look more stupid than you are.

dont balance pvp around pve. It was never a good option.

Haha, okay. We’ll just leave it there. You clearly have no clue what you’re talking about.

How can you not consider a 5sec window strict? If the target goes immune or there are any mechanics not enabling you to be on your target the window is essentially guaranteed missed.

Monks have a combo system as well, but they aren’t time gated like this.

Looking at all the legendaries, soulbinds etc the bleed-based gameplay might make a real comeback. It that’s the case it would make BT mandatory in essentially all content that doesn’t consist of targets dying instantly (i.e. some / many M+ dungeons and a couple of raid bosses).

BT cannot be purged. But PS, which was used in the old BT can.

The “combo” required for the new BT can be prevented through stunning/knockbacks/immunities etc. It’s a similar issue as with the old BT, but not the same.

I don’t like the new BT either. It’s actually horrible. But to say that the old one was perfect and didn’t have massive issues, or that it should be brought back, is a joke.

And is very easily restored in 3 seconds.

If it is mandatory, I don’t think it will be, as you say it will only be mandatory in very small number of situations and in those situation I think BT is fine. You obviously have a different opinion, which is great, I like to hear other opinions.

Now that is something on which we both agree.

Out of curiosity what would you like to see either of them replaced with?

Yeah, while at 5 CPs and having to override already existing snapshotted dots. Not clunky at all.

All situations that aren’t mass AoE. I.e. any situation where you wouldn’t pick Predator/MoC.

“Very small number of situations” lol.

Some people have suggested a DPS CD which would consume all your DoTs and deal all their damage instantly / in a very short time span. That sounds OK to me.

Another option would be to make a talent that makes our bleeds snapshot everything like they used to.

A radical option would be to reintroduce CoS (which I know many dislike).

There are obviously more options that aren’t as clunky and backwards as BT (old and new).

That might be a bit too much but how about “During Berserk, you damage over time abilities deal damage 50% faster”? This would be a very nice buff but not with quite as much burst as if all remaining damage is dealt instantaneously.

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The problem is that Berserk lasts 20 seconds and I assume that this would force the Jagged Wounds playstyle during Berserk (which I hate, because in a non-100% uptime scenario that really sucks, imo).

One could discuss how quickly the “remaining damage” should be dealt in my proposal above. It doesn’t have to be instantly, it could be 6-10 seconds or something like that.

Surely if you’re at 5 combo points you will already have the buff? So this situation would never arise?

Not sure what you mean here, care to expand?

None of your suggestion would satisfy the current BT crowd as they like the complexity (whatever that is) of the current BT. Also using all remaining DoTs on one talent wouldn’t that just be turning all your bleeds into a FB?

I’d much prefer something that allowed us to stack DoTs even if it was just RIP or rake.

It will certainly happen that you fail the combo due to uptime/immunities when you’re at 1-4 CPs and thus you’re forced to restart the combo and use combo-point generators at 5CPs (depending on initial CPs and the amount of crits) as to not apply a non-BT’d finisher.

You tried to play it off as if BT will only be a viable choice in “a very small amount of situations” (paraphrased).

This is simply false, as BT will be the optimal talent in all ST situations, which is a considerable amount of content (e.g. all PvP and most of raids, and some dungeons, with the raids and dungeons depending on their design).

Sure, they wouldn’t. But then again, in my opinion, I think BT was a mistake to begin with and it should never have been introduced to start with.

I think BT (and similar overly complex and ridiculous mechanics) are a crutch to the spec and would simply not be accepted by any other spec in the game. BT is not even accepted by most Ferals, as they have already left the spec or quit the game entirely. While not a perfect measurement you can even see the dislike on the forums.

The only place where BT is hailed as some form of masterpiece is the Druid discord, where they bully anyone who disagrees with that consensus into silence or even into leaving the channel. I.e. it’s an echo chamber.

The people who like BT are a small, vocal, and bullying minority which has succeeded in turning Feral into what’s been mostly a dead spec for ~2 expansions now.

But this is, of course, my opinion and my interpretation.

It would turn your remaining bleed damage effects into short (~6sec) duration bleed. Either that or it’d turn your bleeds into an instant damage effect (depending on how one were to implement it). But it should be on a considerable CD, maybe 1.5min, so you can plan around when to use it and not just use it mindlessly all the time etc.

Yes the builder can and will be interrupted, you make it sound like it will happen on a regular basis wasting an abundance of combo points and that is simply not the case. Lets not forget you only need 3 different builders whilst trying to generate 5 combo points that gives you 2 attempts at getting the buff, if you get interrupted after 2 builders you still have the next 3 to try again. getting interrupted twice in the time it takes to build 5 combo points?

No I didn’t, I said getting the buff would be fairly simple in most situations. I fear we’ve had a communications breakdown.

I know nothing about the druid discord, but I do agree with you on your description of the current BT, its crap, I don’t like it and don’t use it. The new however, and this is the only point I’ve been trying to make, is far superior to the current version. IMO its quite easy, fun and satisfying to use. Is it perfect? No.

I’ve had my fill of overly long CD’s that are crap (see berserk). I’d rather have something rotational or stacking DoTs as I’ve already said.

The problem with this is you’re taking a talent to make a bad CD not bad. If berserk were good and then you could take a talent to make it strong I’d be OK with that.

Honestly in my humble opinion, which I have been saying for years on these forums, there are two easy fixes to berserk and it boggles my mind why one has not been implemented.

1/ make berserk a 2min CD and add 15% crit modifier for the full duration.

It’s a bit boring but functional. Certainly makes it useful to actually press.

2/ make berserk a 2 min cd and 30-40% of all damage dealt gets turned into a dot lasting 6-8sec. Adjust accordingly

Seeing as feral has historically not even been able to press our big “CD” during lust, these actually help with that.
Posted on a Monk for some reason…

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