Is Warcraft's narrative leaving the Horde behind?

Argent Dawn
101

Well, what comes to mind is:

  • What about the Defias? Their new leader who was just recently introduced during the human heritage questline survived and got away.
  • What about Vanessa and the breadbasket guild? It was implied parts of the stormwind nobility outwardly supported them while secretly trying to sabotage their efforts
  • rebuilding Loch Modan and Menethil harbor
  • After SoO, Varian talked about building „New Theramore“ at the spot of the original Theramore in dustwallow march
  • the dark iron heritage quest introduced the cult of ragnaros. They want to ressurect the OG firelord and are still at large
  • Draenei finally actually settling on Azeroth instead of living in a crash site
  • Eventually reclaiming Teldrassil
  • rebuilding Southshore (apparently already ongoing since BFA)

However, the issue with most of these points, similiar to the horde ones, are their locations. EK and Kalimdor. Unless we get small excursions into different parts of the world, like we did with gilneas, chances are we will spend most our time under ground, in Quel thalas (maybe Lordaeron too?) and Northrend.

3 Likes
102

This might be brought up in Draenei heritage.

103

Another problem is that there are two types of narrative in WoW: characters and factions. In BFA and even more in Shadowlands, all the narrative was character-based.

Someone like Saurfang didn’t really represent the orcs, he was just his own character with internal struggles. Someone like Sylvanas may have been the leader of the Forsaken, but in practice she had her own agenda, and so forth.

When BFA tried to speak of factions, I think it delivered with Kul Tiras and Zandalar, but failed when it came to the Horde and the Alliance. Likewise, SL didn’t even consider the classic races.

Dragonflight followed the same trend until this last patch, where finally we get to see the night elves again.

This is, imho, something important. When I think of bringing the Horde “back”, I do not want to see just more prominent Horde characters, I want to see the faction’s races at large. Not just Thrall and Baine, or Lor’themar.

3 Likes
104

They 1000% forgot about this with Smolderon becoming a raid boss

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105

That was Doomhammer, not Blackhand. The latter was already dead before the Second War and it’s how Orgrim became Warchief in the first place.

“So, with Smolderon following in Ragnaros’ footsteps… why do we need the latter again?” But yeah, the Dark Iron Firelord Cultists is something I’d hoped to see more of.

Also damn, I seem to have sparked a conversation with my question about Turalyon!

As for the topic of Alliance attacking first for a change… with Genn abdicating and leaving his throne to Tess “Shush dad, the Forsaken are our friends now!” Greymane and Tyrande’s renewal arc, the two most likely ones to have problems with the Horde have been taken out of the picture. I wonder if Sky Admiral Rogers still has a job after crashing the Skyfire. The rest of the leaders just aren’t the sorts to start trouble on their own, and even Moira’s reputation as a schemer has gotten better.

Meanwhile on the Horde-side, the only faction leader I can currently think of to have beef with the Alliance would be Talanji, after the invasion of Dazar’alor and the murder of Rastakhan. With Gallywix replaced by Gazlowe and the orcs seemingly lead by Thrall again, the Forsaken having the Desolate Council ( only Calia may be a little more equal than others), and the rest of the races having no war-like leaders either, it does indeed look that faction-wars are dead for good.

Honestly though, this is yet another reason why a world-revamp expansion would be great. To get some proper world-building again and see how the different races are faring after all this time, and stop getting all the development from books…

1 Like
106

I was kind of hoping he’d give up on his title so he can then start his guerilla war against the Horde without dragging his entire kingdom into it or causing a schism. He seemed to be instead extremely baffled, defanged and his way to a retirement home.

107

Which honesty, I can understand to a degree. He’s seen his Kingdom brought low partially due to his own mistakes ( letting Arugal summon the worgen, isolationist policies), lost his son and many of his people.

Then he sees his people scattered to the far corners of the world and dwindle even further during the many wars the Alliance wages against the Horde , the Iron Horde ( remember Ed), the Legion, the Horde again ( losing yet more Gilneans at Teldrassil next to the Kaldorei), the Naga and Old Gods, and finally the Shadowlands shenanigans. And all the while he -still- hasn’t managed to bring his people any closer to home.

And although I have plenty to say about the reclamation of Gilneas, I can sorta get Genn to be weary of it all. He got his Kingdom back and his people back home, he’s in his eighties, so he could atleast end on a high note. Even if I do not like how it looks as though the writers of the questline tried to portray him as “Old boomer who can’t get with the times”.

2 Likes
108

I think the conclusion to Genn’s story in this regard (I know he said he’ll keep helping the Alliance) was about as good as we were ever going to get. He’s an old, tired man who’s entrusting the future of his kingdom to his more adaptive daughter rather than dragging his people into another costly, bloody conflict in which they’d have no allies – Stormwind wouldn’t help them and the Kaldorei wouldn’t get stuck in.

109

I am just wondering how Voss suddenly came on friendly/equel footing with people like Shandris, the rest of the Horde council, etc…

Especially since before BfA she wanted nothing to do with the Forsaken(or Horde for that matter)

How did Voss and Shandris even became partners? Tess I can acknowledge due to the Uncrowned, but Shandris is a big blank I either missed or just came out of the blue?

110

Lack of iconic Forsaken characters other than Sylvanas and Nathanos. After them, Voss was the next most recognisable so she was brought into the fold by the writers, so that they could have more than two Forsaken characters to work with.

111

The writers randomly decided it to be so.
Same reason she’s a leader of the forsaken suddenly.

You forgot orcs 2 electric boogaloo.

Geyarah (there’s a ’ in there somewhere but I don’t know where) iirc pretty confidently said that she wants to wipe out the draenei because she equates them to the lightbound.

112

Please don’t get rid of Belmont. He’s one of the very few “main” Forsaken left that are not just-… your average human NPC.

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113

Belmont’s only flaw is not having had calia killed yet :pray:

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114

Which is fair! My reason for choosing him as the leader of a Forsaken uprising that did not wish to relinquish Gilneas, was because he was personally involved in the quests of Silverpine that dealt with the aftermath of most Gilneans leaving. That, -and- he was the one who seemed most distrustful of Calia during the whole reclamation of Undercity, so I figured he made the most sense. Rather than pulling some no-name out of thin air like they did with the Scarlet lady we kill back during Gilneas reclamation.

I felt that that way, the whole affair would be more impactful for both parties involved. The Gilneans get to deal with a man who was personally involved in losing their homeland, where the Forsaken get to symbolically deal with a remnant of their past under Sylvanas the Banshee Queen’s leadership, from which point on they are indeed free to explore their new future.

115

Sadly the most important thing is the story being told by Blizzard. Sure, there are a lot of other small things that might help Horde RP here and there, but as long as the Horde keeps being just Alliance but with a bit more dusty clothes in the narrative, not much else matters.

Post BfA there just isn’t a Horde identity anymore and there is only so much one can do in RP when forced peace, forced forgivness and the power of friendship are the main themes driving the narrative made by Blizzard. Believe me, people have tried, but it gets very demoralising after a while and simply not worth it.

And from what we know so far about the Worldsoul Saga things are not very likely to change for at least 3 more expansions. The sole focus of the plot now seems to be on a monolithic and nondescript conglomerate of mortals standing against evil. And the characters driving that plot are mostly Alliance ones with some, let’s be real, Horde in name only ones sparkled in.

Also, the Horde has been written to be subserviant to the Alliance now and fully happy with that arrangement. Which I’m sure is fun for some, but obviously for a lot of people trying to resolve the cognitive dissonance their Horde character will keep having every time the Horde leadership takes another action that is against the interests of the Horde might not be something very fun to RP for long.

The reality is that there is no meaningful difference between the factions nowadays but one faction simply offers you more options, the narrative is constructed around that faction and its ideals, you don’t have to do as many mental gymnastics to explain the current lore as that faction etc.

The main thing that needs to change is for the writers at Blizzard to respect the Horde and its unique characteristics and ideals again. But those go against the stories they want to tell right now. Perhaps they go against some other deeper things, but that’s a different topic.

Absent that respect from the writers, I suppose maybe in a few years or so we might see the people who only know of this modern, whitewashed and defanged post-BfA Horde and like that vibe grow new active and engaged communities as others either forget or move on. I personally doubt it, but who knows.

That’s not to say you can’t still find good, fun and engaging RP as a Horde character, of course you can. It’s just a lot less these days and requires a lot more work for a whole lot less reward.

4 Likes
116

To echo this sentiment, I don’t think that night elf roleplay was in a bad spot prior to this patch, I’m quite confident in saying that Amirdrassil and Bel’ameth have absolutely reinvigorated that scene. The same with Gilneas, worgen (and Gilneas-loyal worgen specifically) have never been unpopular, there’s been an absolute resurgence with the reclamation.

And it’s why I think so many folk on Horde gravitated to either grunt roleplay or Sylvanas loyalism because what else was there in terms of things being depicted and (for lack of a better term) endorsed by Blizzard? While we’re not limited to the things being shown currently in the story by the Warcraft story team, the ability to be a part of something bigger than our characters’ and guilds’ storylines is very much appealing.

I think a lot of players have felt kind of stuck in BFA in terms of their characters, but if you don’t play a forsaken or a character that was a part of the Horde military, when was the last time something happened with your character’s race or culture? Maybe some Legion stuff, but if your character isn’t all too talented at their chosen class, then you gotta go back to Warlords of Draenor, at which point you basically have to go an expansion back to Mists in order to find a time in which Blizzard granted you anything of relevance to really dive in on.

Bit of a tangent but something I feel that most people have thought and felt at some point. I do have Horde characters, but I’ve really found that the only way I ever feel like playing them is by having them drift towards the neutral side. I wanted to make them Horde loyal as a sort of mirror to some of my more Alliance-loyal characters on blue side, but I’ve often found the question of:

What does it even mean to be loyal to the Horde as a whole at this point?

It feels like the Horde isn’t as much of a thing to be loyal to as the Alliance is, and more that it’s just “follow whoever’s in charge.” So you’ve Thrall’s Horde which is probably the closest thing to actually follow, then Garrosh’s Horde which if you followed you’re probably a war criminal and an outcast, and Sylvanas’ Horde which is mostly the same, and Vol’jin’s Horde which… literally did nothing because he was done so dirty.

Meanwhile if I want to play an Alliance-loyal character it’s just “yay king good Horde bad”. It feels so much easier to actually conceptualize.

7 Likes
117

I’ll be honest, I think the writers really want to step away from the factions generally, and are just looking for methods of removing characters that they no longer feel have a place in the lore or just don’t want to write about for a bit.

I get where you are coming from with Dragonflight, and a slight vindictive part of me is saying “Hey, this is basically the Alliance story from Battle for Azeroth, where we just watched the Horde have all the story and plot. And then again when the Horde got the Undercity back in Shadowlands.” But that’s not a particularly helpful opinion, and more of a gut reaction. I think the new world tree and retaking of Gilneas is just a sneaky way of writing out and wrapping up the stories of Tyrande, Malfurion and Genn for the foreseeable future.

In truth, I think the current writers, who seem to be mostly new to the team, with a lot of the old writers and leadership having left, in some cases for very good reasons, really just want to write one story that is very… modern. And when I say modern, I just mean they want the story to be more focused on notions of personal growth of certain characters and write themes that just feel that they fit more so in a more modern setting.

I don’t think the stories they write are always terrible or in the wrong places, but there’s a clear inconsistency with writing depth, forgetting or even being quite scornful towards older characters and lore and really just making their own World of Warcraft story. It is kinda like the Disney thing with Star Wars, where they seem to actively want to mock, degrade or just use old content to draw people in, but then push quite often sub-par new stuff, though I guess that’s a matter of opinion.

Under the old guard, and I am glad they are gone given their, let’s just call it misdeeds, there was a certain sense of continuity, where characters acted largely the same way they had done before, and would have character growth moments, but these were generally a little slower and felt more genuine. Nowadays, everyone is quick to kiss and make up and forgot quite frankly the horrible things both factions have done to each other. Is this a positive thing for these characters and factions? Yes. Does it make sense narratively? Rarely.

Sorry, I went on a bit of a ramble there, but I think ultimately, the writers are just catching up with old plot points and writing out old characters so they can focus on the ones they like more and make them more narratively relevant. If there were more Horde characters with unfinished plots around, likely we’d see more of them being discreetly written out.

3 Likes
118

I would describe the Horde experience as solidarity between races that have struggled to obtain freedom and recognition in a hostile and uncaring world.

While the conflicts that the Alliance has faced can best be described as wars to protect the world and all of the wonders of their civilisations, most of the strife and the adversity faced by the members of the modern Horde were efforts to escape extinction or oppression. While the Alliance can best be described as defenders, the Horde can best be described as survivors.

To be loyal to the Horde is to recognise that the folly of standing alone and that your best chance of survival is to be a part of something greater, to stand and fight alongside other races who understand the struggles and the plight of your own people.

From a more negative perspective, this also involves viewing the rest of the world in a wary light, if not with outright hostility. If they are defined as survivors, then there must be a threat to their survival that they must fight against. However, this doesn’t have to drive them to fight the Alliance at every turn.
Defending civilisation isn’t all that different for fighting for the survival of one’s people when the world is faced with a great threat, though I would say that there’s enough difference between “defenders” and “survivors” that the Horde doesn’t have to be depicted as a red Alliance.

9 Likes
119

I will say it felt extremely peculiar to be able to do reclaiming The Undercity and reclaiming Gilneas on both factions and I hope council deems Calia a traitot for going behind people’s backs rather than the tepid reluctant acceptance Blizz has been tossing out in the face of genuine conflict.

120

The questlines state multiple times, both in 9.2.5 and 10.2.5, that these decisions have been discussed and passed by the council. The only ‘clandestine’ part of the Gilneas questline is the fact that they didn’t alert the Gilneas of it under Tess’ prerogative, keeping their armies far away from the border until permission was given as to not seem like they were planning an invasion. She goes on to mention that had it been any other way, Genn wouldn’t have sought their help. Afterwards, the army is led into Gilneas by Calia herself, drawing the Scarlet Crusade’s attention while the Gilneans, led by Tess, and with the help of Lilian Voss, flanked the Scarlet Crusade.

I don’t really enjoy Calia either, but let’s not be mad at something that literally isn’t true.