Its not fun

Classes Priest
41

As much as I wanna agree with your overall point this is way missing the mark.

Shadow is good on Orgozoa for very much the same reason it is currently good on Ilganoth. Adds and boss has fairly even relevance across the fight, and consistent damage on them is valuable.

SHADOW WAS GOOD AT ORGOZOA BECAUSE ADDS WERE CONSISTENT AND ADD DAMAGE WAS ALWAYS RELEVANT.

However, what shadow is BAD at, but looks similar on paper, is Vexiona.

The adds don’t matter, the boss matters. Burst damage matters, high cooldown boss damage during the last phase matters. Dotting does not.

You’re right. Having watched mythic progress and sitting within it myself. A lot of fights are single target burns with lots of superfluous adds that dont matter and will die with or without a shadow priest’s assistance.

What Shadow is good at:
Sustained semi relevant damage across long fights.

Dealing damage to targets out of melee range and a boss, consistently (Not in bursts).

What Shadow is bad at
Directing damage at relevant targets.
Single target / Boss damage.
Stacked target cleave.
Any form of burst damage on anything.

Going to address this also. Because honestly it needs a bit of explaining, and I need to give credit / fair cop where it’s due.

Firstly, I said class not spec. So we’re comparing from fire mage to windwalker.

Secondly, I was paraphrasing myself from a similar conversation I’d had a few months back (When the changes were announced). Log data changes, as we know, especially towards the end of tiers. The current delta is 14.61% Which while not 9%, isn’t 23.8% either (Sivara Mythic 80%). We could also start talking about how windwalker is a relative outlier, being below every single other class by a sizeable margin and only beating a single spec of a class which has multiple, but I feel that’s manipulating the data for the sake of a narrative.

Being a burst dps is most certainly considered good in raiding, see mage, Assa Rogue, warlock, balance druid. Hell, just the concept of opener CDs in general. Better than sustain for certain. What isn’t considered good is taking up a melee position without providing a damage buff, strong raidwide utility, or A to B mobility. There’s a few specs that get shoved into this placement, Enh, WW, Ret, and feral, where no matter how good the damage is, unless it’s overpoweringly obnoxiously good (Antorus WW monk) it just can’t muscle its way into a raid comp.

Most of the complaining never stopped, because it’s been complaints about the nature and delivery of shadow’s damage and how that is by design inferior to the way in which every other class does its damage. Those who were piggybacking that argument in order to argue they needed buffs shut up in BoD and EP, but those who still considered the problem to have gone unsolved never stopped. I’ve never stopped.

I don’t agree with his point or how he’s presented it, but I do want to try and attempt to rephrase it and ask a different question.

What is the value of backloaded damage? Not just execute, but actual “Your average dps will not peak until 50+ seconds into this fight” type damage.

From where I’m sitting having raided every encounter on mythic since HFC. It doesn’t have value. Execute has value. Burst has value. Sustain has some value but is often overshadowed by people just timing their cooldowns better. But backloading has none at all.

So. At the risk of coming off a little entitled. If backloaded single target as a concept is going to exist, and have no situations in which it pays off, why should that damage also be low?

I don’t believe I have ever said that.

1 Like
42

The same people that replied to me here are the same people who was saying deal with it when ret and ww was the bottom dps specs where everyone else had at least 1 dps higher on the lists.

Those sims depending on the person who makes it are either wildly wrong and put it everything best possible or put in sensible gear.
That also might or might not reflect the essence and/or corruption gear.
How high is the corruption and how high is the cloak and neck level.
Cloak level is 15 it seems. That is something like at the soonest 7 or 8 weeks from now.
But I have not looked enough to see the amount of corruption.

The sims might say one thing there but everything I have said is REAL people that have done.
What the reality say and what the sims say seem to not be in line.

And yet that is what you are complaining about being low on the logs.
You have a raid tier that is not great for you boo hoo 1 raid out of 5 is not bad.
Ret and ww have been around the same place they are now for 5 raids out of 5 this expansion.

First of all I am looking at the average not max logs because max logs are always done by luck or tricks.
Secondly padding is something that is reduced in logs by having 2 different dps values.
This is also why you have dps and normalized numbers.

Shadow priest is low middle of the pack now.
Instead of top dps by a mile.
It is that simple.
Shadow priest was due for a nerf.

And I will tell you a secret the simcraft numbers are almost never the placement specs have in the actual raid even though it can be an indication.
This also is not realistic potential before 7 or 8 more weeks at the earliest.

43

Ok first off you and I are not using the same numbers clearly as you are using deltas I am using what normal people would call average I am NOT USING THE MAX potential because that is useless for 99.99% of people. And what a robot say and what an actual person does is not the same.
I am using data collected from the actual players and using all dps specs because of something I will explain further down.

Spesificly you have said that to me in the past that is why I remember your name at all.

Are seriously claiming that shadow priests damage has been useless for the raids this expansion? Because the class did not get changed in the patch just the amount of damage.

On the class vs spec thing when I used THAT SAME ARGUMENT TO YOU you brushed it off as not mattering it had to be spec and as ret was not the lowest of the low SPECS you said I should stop complaining. Never mind the spec has been middle of the pack to low middle of the pack for this whole time.
In EP the only class lower was WW monk rest had at least 1 spec above.

So yes I will just brush that off as meaning nothing shadow priest is middle of the pack right now there is nothing wrong with that.

The problem is that you are commenting on a topic that is about damage or dps rather instead of a topic that is about HOW THE SPEC does damage.

44

You’re gonna have to quote me saying this because I’m either being thick or ignorant and I’d rather not be either. If I have said that then idk what I can do except apologise?

(51,109.4 - 43,644.02) / 51,109.4 x 100 = 14.61

80% mythic is not the max, that is far far from the max. None of this is sim or robot generated, so idk where the robot remark came from. that’s literally the log data.

As far as class v spec goes in this particular instance. It doesn’t matter how you view the discussion, I said class in my post, you then responded with spec and said I was wrong. I then corrected myself for your and everyone else’s benefit.

No. I’m not. That’s not what I said at all, and you didn’t answer the question.

Nobody ever seems to want to talk about them as separate issues, I tried in EP but all I ever got was “Shut up your spec is OP” or something to that effect. I tried in Uldir and the conversation quickly derailed into numbers.

You can see how linked the two things are because even a majority of the mechanical complaints threads stopped when EP rolled around.

2 Likes
45

Yeah but we were good because we could follow up the add dmg with good singletarget dps aswell.

Atleast when I progressed the fight, the add dmg wasnt priority whatsoever. Im not saying its bad bringing some add dmg. But when specing misery to go ham on adds your actually contributing less to the kill but doing more overall dmg looking superflashy on warcraftlogs. Because there is a singletarget dps check down the line that need to be met or you get overwhelmed.

Ilgynoth will be interesting, because its looks similar with how the adds work. However this time we wont be contributing with good singletarget and I honestly havent looked in to how much of singletarget dps check it will be.

Well I think most of us is frustrated that we got no upside right now. And raiding is where we are best. We are even worse in M+ and PvP. WW monks can whine understandably about how bad they are in raids, atleast they got M+.

46

When I progressed the fight it was allllll about add management from a DPS perspective. You needed a strong foundation of high sustained multi target to keep them dying in time across the whole fight, not just when people had their CDs up, without having people play inefficiently and lose boss damage as a result.

Shadow didn’t even provide boss damage on Orgozoa compared to other specs, but that doesn’t excuse boss damage being even lower now.

Ilganoth does, as you say, look a little like Orgozoa with constant add spawns have to be killed off without DPS actively switching to them.

47

Where are you getting those numbers in EP it is 58,797.44 from top to 46,270.42 bottom in 8.2
Copied directly from warcraftlogs.
Those numbers are fishy.
That 51k and 43k does not lign up with anything what setting are you using to see them?

And yet you claim shadow does not do well in the situations that was present in EP by saying that.
You claim your problem is about how damage is done yet the spec did well on damage and was used in 4 out of 5 raids to great effect.
If the way the damage is done was bad almost useless it would not do so well unless it was overturned to hel.

This might be so but you commenting in this thread when this thread is about damage and not directly about mechanics you are doing the same thing as you complain others are doing when you tried to talk about mechanics and they talked about dps.
You are doing the same as you are complaining about what they are doing.

Heck even my comment was about damage and had nothing to do with mechanics.
Yet you had to write to me.

You used numbers that are just looking so far to be plain wrong or at least I would need to know where that data is from as the web page either are showing different numbers or you are using a spesific time that is not replicable for me.
Because the numbers are just simply not the same numbers you and I are calculating with, as proven that you have 51k and I have 58k on the top spot. For me in this post it is EP mythic all bosses 75th percentile. 8.2
Even looking at each boss and looking at nyalotha heroic and mythic I am not finding your numbers anywhere.

48

Sivara mythic 8.2 current standings all item levels 80th percentile

Fire Mage dps: 51109.40

WW Monk dps: 43644.02

I wrote to you on that specific point because because I wanted to ask you a question, which was loosely based on the discussion you were having with Blodughadda at the time.

Shadow did well because it was grossly, grossly overtuned, not because any part of how the spec naturally works is valuable. You didn’t bring shadow for good priority damage or good burst or good execute, you brought it because it was flat out broken.

49

This explains it you use a single fight you then changes the parameters to most fit your way then you tell people that is how it is factually.
Even though if you go for specs and not classes it is 18.5% and 80th percentile is not normal to use.
At the 75th percentile the normal one to use it is 19.10%
Seriously if you use something special like that you should say it.

Good then we agree here shadow needed a nerf.
Now you can focus on getting changes mechanically.

Shadow is in nyalotha low middle of the pack there is less then 400dps from you and the 10th dps spec heroic it is something like 900dps from the 10th spot in mythic right now.

Unless your guild is going for an extremely high world rank it is not something you should be benched for. Assuming you are a good player.

50

I said single target delta in my original post. I then used the only single target fight in eternal palace to show that. That doesn’t seem particularly special to me.

75% delta between classes is 14.38% at the end of EP also. Which is actually smaller than the delta for 80%.

51

Using the none standard that has been standard for at least 2-4years at this point of 75th percentile not that you used a single target fight.
thought i had made that very clear but apperently not.

So again if you did not understand me it is not that you used a single target fight it is the Percentile you used that is none standard. 75th percentile has been standard for many years now and you should know this.

Again you use classes i have been VERY freaking clear that i am using all the specs and in this case, it is 1 that means One spec more and you jump from 14.38% to 19.10% i wonder why you chose to keep that one spec out of this specific list Nah it is just because that makes it a smaller number.

You pick and choose to make the numbers favour what you want instead of just being ok with them being what it is.

But at least i know where you get your numbers from now and we can agree on what the numbers are.

52

Yeh keep hoping mate, and blizz will keep nerfing, that’s how the cookie crumbles in wow. And if your a sod like me who doesn’t have the luxury of time to keep rerolling classes, your basically a turkey on new years with all the trimmings if you catch my drift. Its just no good man, Its like you had a brand new spanking Ferrari and you come out of your house one day and find it burned, dented and had its engine changed with one that’s 200 bhp less. How do you do that to someone with out buying them dinner and a decent lipstick afterwards. dayuuuummmm!

53

This made me chuckle, what a difference a few weeks makes eh? Sitting 5th on the rankings (was 4th till frost mage got a unneeded buff and jumped from 4th bottom to fourth top), fancy spriest dmg scaling well and with haste% and crit% corruption floating round too.

54

Post with your main instead! Pointless to make this thread so no point to talk! We dont know how good gear you have etc…

55

also gameplay is just not fun, i recently been leveling my shadowpriest on alliance and i forgot how bad gameplay is, wish they merge pain and vamp touch into something useful and get rid of voidform or rework it, also having a BL is nice too :stuck_out_tongue: maybe im asking for too much,

56

Copy pasting from US.

Shadow brings ample overall damage for most encounters, for some fights it’s even very good due to significant additional targets, ilgynoth mostly. Shadow’s also has been allowed a seat at the table on fights like raden because of the massive power spikes raids have been getting that allow them to brute force DPS checks which shadow could not help with early on.

The fact is shadows damage is getting better, but outside of a few encounters, the way in which that damage is delivered is just not valuable. Coupled with lacking an immunity, mobility cooldown, or effective proactive raid cd, and truly abysmal boss damage, we’re just not on the billing for early mythic raid progress this tier, and down with monks as one of the worst classes to bring to Mythic carapace or Nzoth.

Given parity, slow damage is just worse than fast damage. That’s a problem unique to shadow and one that has to be solved going into shadowlands.

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