It's time to undo Legion's framework

[Shihiroki-kirin-tor]

Hi.

That’s a biased opinion aboot the current state of the game and why many players are being frustrated. In my opinion, the max level progression systems introduced with Legion are showing their limits and are actually frustrating, which pushes players away to games which do not feature such systems.

The first reason being that most of specs feel incomplete unpon reaching max level. From Vanilla up to WOD, we knew how our main spec would play, how it’s working, what talent should we pick in a given situation, what spell should we be using, what professions could make a difference on my spec.

That was nice, we knew exactly how to build our characters, we only had to pay attention aboot gear. That’s it, just that.

Now, since Legion, our specs are not complete upon capping at max level. That was true during legion when some traits were mandatory to empower our artifact weapon spell, like enabling wake of ashes to generate 5 holy power upon cast. Withtout that trait, the spec had a slow pace in terms of rotation and would actually feel incomplete without. Not to mention other traits which are also good spec upgrades.

Because we had AP, we could not unlock most of traits right away, it took some time in order to do so, but my point still stand : Most of specs were not complete upon reaching level max during Legion. And I’m not even mentionning Legiondaries, which are another layer of system to build our spec upon.

We can sadly repeat the process for BFA and SL, in which specs are not complete upon caping at max level, because we had to build azerite and essences for BFA and conduits, renown, legendaries and conduits for SL.

Those layers of systems are the reasons why specs are not complete at launch and require more time spent to upgrade those things and to properly build in X or Y situation.

The second point is the way of progressing at level max.

In fact, people were upset aboot AP being an infinite grind during Legion because that kills the idea of being done and actually requires players to log in every single day so they don’t miss on every single bit of AP they could get. The artifact traits were fine on their own, but they were gated behind AP wall, which made the system bad. I’m not going to mention legiondaries which were all aboot RNG drops and that sucked hard, because looting unwanted legendaries was not satisfying, because I would rather drop a good legendary over an useless one.

BFA azerite armors were a bis repetita from artifact traits, ie traits being locked behind an AP wall, so that an higher ilvl piece of gear could end up not being an upgrade because I couldn’t activate traits on the new piece of gear. Fortunately, they fixed that in 8.1 but they should have fixed that at launch.

Sadly, BFA also featured another layer of system, which are essences. And I do think that’s the worst system ever made because not only it had an AP wall, it also forced players into content they may dislike, like arena players being forced to raid and M+ runners being forced to participate in PVP activities, more esp when essences didn’t shine where we were getting them, like Blood of the ennemy being bis for melee in M+.

Now, here we are in SL. Fortunately, AP is now irrelevant but renown has a massive flaw, which is : players must stay up to date with their weeklies if they don’t want to rely on RNG to get more renown. 9.1 kinda corrected that but I do think that’s not enough, more esp for alts that haven’t step a foot in SL yet.

Also, legendaries can be worked towards without relying on RNG, which is an improvement. But not only they’re gated behind a timegated currency, they’re also behind a boring content, so they’re actually as bas as their RNG counter parts, for actually less impressive effects.

Lastly, conduits are SL’s worst system imho. I can’t ignore the fact that upgrading them is a tedious and boring process, requiring to participate into boring grinds only to then see that wrong conduits have been upgraded, let alone from the wrong spec. It took Blizzard 9 months to finally segregate conduit upgrades to spec only without realizing that the main issue has not been fixed yet, ie conduits upgrades being RNG.

Because of those wrongly designed systems and frustrating ways of acquisitions, players are leaving the game to games that don’t feature such hostile system.

One might say that he’s enjoying the game because he does not pay attention to those systems. Fair enough. But if the game is enjoyable by not paying attention to systems, then might aswell remove those alltogether.

TLDR : Ever since legion, blizzard introduced systems to replace what we lost during Legion’s pruning. Instead of just paying attention to talents, we now have dozen of layers of systems to pay attention at. The game systems also have frustrating ways of acquisition, which then push players away from the game, out of frustration.

[Hexelyion-aggramar (Hexelyion)]

Yup. Pretty much.

Class power mustn’t rely on so many systems to function.

Ideally it’d be just gear that enhances your character, not a gazillion other variables.

[Mellinora-argent-dawn (Mellinora)]

@Shihiroki-kirin-tor

TLDR : Ever since legion, blizzard introduced systems to replace what we lost during Legion’s pruning. Instead of just paying attention to talents, we now have dozen of layers of systems to pay attention at. The game systems also have frustrating ways of acquisition, which then push players away from the game, out of frustration.

What do you suggest?

Borrowed power is one of the few topics where I think Blizzard are right and players attacking them constantly are mostly wrong.

What would be a sound replacement for temporary additions / adjustments to the spellbook that evaporate when a new expansion starts? Be specific.

A new talent row every expansion? This will stop working after two-three expansions. If they started doing this in Legion, this would have stopped working by now.

A new set of options perpendicular to talents which augment them in some way? Eg, something like what they have in D3 where you have an ability and then a set of modifiers of which you can only choose one. With new expansions adding to that set of augments. That’s what they are doing now with their systems, it’s just that the set of augments is getting replaced every time instead of growing. If it had to grow, new options would have to be more powerful than old options, and then old options would be deadweight, so it would still be replacement de-facto.

What else?

[Shihiroki-kirin-tor]

@Mellinora-argent-dawn

What do you suggest?

Removing borrowed powers is the solution because blizzard can’t design them right.

@Mellinora-argent-dawn

Borrowed power is one of the few topics where I think Blizzard are right and players attacking them constantly are mostly wrong.

On the other hand of the spectrum, you can’t say that’s sucessful, otherwise, people would not leave en masse and nobody would complain aboot that.

@Mellinora-argent-dawn

What would be a sound replacement for temporary additions / adjustments to the spellbook that evaporate when a new expansion starts? Be specific.

Reworking classes would be sufficient, for each removed spell, they should add another, instead of just straight up prunning.

@Mellinora-argent-dawn

A new talent row every expansion? This will stop working after two-three expansions. If they started doing this in Legion, this would have stopped working by now.

I’d rather they revamped talents. I have no clue aboot how to do that but I’m sure it needs some work and iterations.

@Mellinora-argent-dawn

That’s what they are doing now with their systems, it’s just that the set of augments is getting replaced every time instead of growing.

Then it should be given freely, without requiring extra grinding. Heck, I’ll accept conduits if the grind behind upgrading them is removed.

@Mellinora-argent-dawn

What else?

It’s up to them to at least hold to their promises. If they were to keep their systems, then they should make those “free”, ie not requiring some kind of extra unfun chores aka grind.

[Mellinora-argent-dawn (Mellinora)]

@Shihiroki-kirin-tor

Removing borrowed powers is the solution because blizzard can’t design them right.

@Shihiroki-kirin-tor

Reworking classes would be sufficient, for each removed spell, they should add another, instead of just straight up prunning.

@Shihiroki-kirin-tor

I’d rather they revamped talents. I have no clue aboot how to do that but I’m sure it needs some work and iterations.

So, they should stop doing borrowed powers, I got that.

Then they need to “rework classes” and by that you mean removing spells and for each removed spell adding a new one. I assume they should be doing this every expansion, correct? Suppose they do this. Then how that wouldn’t be similar to borrowed powers? Ie, you are a druid, we go into SL, they remove prowl (lol) and add something else. How exactly is the new ability that they add not “borrowed power”? It can be removed in the next expansion, right? How exactly was prowl not “borrowed power”? It was just removed. It seems that what you are suggesting is turning everything into “borrowed power”.

They also should “revamp talents”. But you have no idea how. So it’s kind of hard to discuss.

I mean, you get the picture…

[Kreedfiend-tarren-mill]

Great post!
Agree with everything, its exactly why the 5-7 people I have had in my friends list for over 12 years (since late Vanilla or TBC) are no longer logging in to play after leveling.
Or they’re only going Classic and TBC now if they log in…

[Shihiroki-kirin-tor]

@Mellinora-argent-dawn

So, they should stop doing borrowed powers, I got that.

Defo.

@Mellinora-argent-dawn

Then they need to “rework classes” and by that you mean removing spells and for each removed spell adding a new one. I assume they should be doing this every expansion, correct? Suppose they do this. Then how that wouldn’t be similar to borrowed powers? Ie, you are a druid, we go into SL, they remove prowl (lol) and add something else. How exactly is the new ability that they add not “borrowed power”? It can be removed in the next expansion, right? How exactly was prowl not “borrowed power”? It was just removed. It seems that what you are suggesting is turning everything into “borrowed power”.

Actually, I do think we should not need to change classes. I mean, why should we fix what ain’t broke ? The reason why wow is struggling is mainly because Blizzard designers want to reinvent the wheel every single expansion. But if the wheel is just working fine, then why should it be changed ? I’m pretty sure we don’t need massive changes every single year.

@Mellinora-argent-dawn

They also should “revamp talents”. But you have no idea how. So it’s kind of hard to discuss.

I’d advocate to make some kind of mix between the current one and the former. I would also make “theme” rows rather than defensive options VS mobility tools.

@Mellinora-argent-dawn

I mean, you get the picture…

It’s not me to design the game, but on blizzard to understand why people are unhappy.

@Kreedfiend-tarren-mill

Or they’re only going Classic and TBC now if they log in…

Well, there are “rogue” servers which happen to offer good class design

Sadly, I dislike pre cata class design.

[Mellinora-argent-dawn (Mellinora)]

@Shihiroki-kirin-tor

Actually, I do think we should not need to change classes. I mean, why should we fix what ain’t broke ? The reason why wow is struggling is mainly because Blizzard designers want to reinvent the wheel every single expansion. But if the wheel is just working fine, then why should it be changed ? I’m pretty sure we don’t need massive changes every single year.

Well, OK, I am not against trying it that way - minimal changes between expansions. There would be cons though. Ie, “my class is constantly screwed because it has no slow and this is not changing ever, so I have to solve this problem myself by rerolling”. I don’t know whether they will be better, honestly. It might easily become that not only we will have strong metas for all of M+ / raids / arenas / bgs, these metas will also not change for years and the game will become “if you want to raid heal, go priest / shaman and nobody else”.

Quite honestly, I would keep borrowed powers. They are a lesser evil. For real.

[Linaria-steamwheedle-cartel]

I bloody hate systems and I bloody hate Blizzard’s need to reinvent the wheel every expansion(/patch?) in terms of classes and everything.

At the risk of sounding very “back in MY day,” I think WoW is one of those games that benefit most from simplicity. WotlK, my favourite expansion of all time, was pretty bare-bones if you think about it–higher level cap, new battlegrounds, new world content, new raids/dungeons… Aaaand in terms of core stuff that’s pretty much it? Gearing was pretty simple–do more difficult content for better rewards.

Maybe it’s impossible to go back to that. Maybe the playerbase changed too much for something like this to work. But damn, do I miss it.

[Kreedfiend-tarren-mill]

@Shihiroki-kirin-tor

@Kreedfiend-tarren-mill

Or they’re only going Classic and TBC now if they log in…

Well, there are “rogue” servers which happen to offer good class design

Sadly, I dislike pre cata class design.

I hear you. I don’t think the actual game version matters much to them, just that its not current retail.

None of them are really the kind of people who would try private servers, they all play games to give themselves a short escape or break. Something they feel that end-game retail no longer provides for the reasons you’ve already stated.

[Popgligor-magtheridon]

To be fair, I think the reason Legion was considered so good is that it was the first. I think if the last 3 expansion order was flipped in any random order, the first one would be considered best.

I want us to go back to a simpler times. We KNOW the simpler times work, because those are when the game was at its biggest. Nobody can tell me expansion-wide progression systems are needed, because they did not exist until WoD. Wrath didn’t have AP.

And if Blizz doesn’t waste development time and effort designing and balancing these systems that will be deleted in 2 years, they can focus on making more interesting main content for the game, which will stay around even when the expansion ends.

[Tahra-earthen-ring (Tahra)]

@Shihiroki-kirin-tor

In fact, people were upset aboot AP being an infinite grind during Legion because that kills the idea of being done

But I like never being done. Being done is boring. Being done is the main reason for canceling my sub.

I’m not addressing your other points because they don’t affect me. I don’t play the game in such a way where I care about those things. But the above thing is DEFINITELY a sore point for me and a big reason why Shadowlands is so crappy: I was ‘done’ (power wise anyway) within 2 months of the expansion’s launch. And it sucked.

@Popgligor-magtheridon

We KNOW the simpler times work, because those are when the game was at its biggest

Always this same faulty argument from people. Those 2 things have nothing to do with each other.
They just share some ‘time space’. That’s literally all.

[Shihiroki-kirin-tor]

@Mellinora-argent-dawn

Well, OK, I am not against trying it that way - minimal changes between expansions. There would be cons though. Ie, “my class is constantly screwed because it has no slow and this is not changing ever, so I have to solve this problem myself by rerolling”. I don’t know whether they will be better, honestly. It might easily become that not only we will have strong metas for all of M+ / raids / arenas / bgs, these metas will also not change for years and the game will become “if you want to raid heal, go priest / shaman and nobody else”.

Quite honestly, I would keep borrowed powers. They are a lesser evil. For real.

Borrowed powers didn’t allow to make ret paladin viable, alongside many unwanted specs. If anything, I’d say they made that specific issue worse, by not giving the unwanted spec something’s that would make them competitive.

@Linaria-steamwheedle-cartel

At the risk of sounding very “back in MY day,” I think WoW is one of those games that benefit most from simplicity. WotlK, my favourite expansion of all time, was pretty bare-bones if you think about it–higher level cap, new battlegrounds, new world content, new raids/dungeons… Aaaand in terms of core stuff that’s pretty much it? Gearing was pretty simple–do more difficult content for better rewards.

And I agree, the game was better when it was simpler. They sought to make the game more accessible, yet, somehow managed to do the exact opposite.

I mean, we have layers upon layers of systems, it’s hard to get a clear vision.

@Kreedfiend-tarren-mill

None of them are really the kind of people who would try private servers, they all play games to give themselves a short escape or break.

They should defo try !

@Popgligor-magtheridon

To be fair, I think the reason Legion was considered so good is that it was the first. I think if the last 3 expansion order was flipped in any random order, the first one would be considered best.

Legion had many good things, and it was not systems, but the fact we had a constant flow of enjoyable content to do. This beind said, Legion also had a lot of complaints and was eventually fixed towards the end of the expansion…Like BFA and certainly like SL.

@Popgligor-magtheridon

I want us to go back to a simpler times. We KNOW the simpler times work, because those are when the game was at its biggest. Nobody can tell me expansion-wide progression systems are needed, because they did not exist until WoD. Wrath didn’t have AP.

Wrath didn’t have AP. Neither did cata, nor mop, let alone WOD. And that’s why I actually enjoyed more those expansions. And those also didn’t have had parasite systems ruining the class design so they could justify create those boring systems.

@Popgligor-magtheridon

And if Blizz doesn’t waste development time and effort designing and balancing these systems that will be deleted in 2 years, they can focus on making more interesting main content for the game, which will stay around even when the expansion ends.

Yes, that’s definitely true ! Those systems are just a HR sink.

@Tahra-earthen-ring

But I like never being done. Being done is boring. Being done is the main reason for canceling my sub.

And is that an issue to play for a couple of months ? I mean, wow has been build this way for many years and it looks like the old ways of doing things is more popular than the legion way of handling that.

@Tahra-earthen-ring

Shadowlands is so crappy: I was ‘done’ (power wise anyway) within 2 months of the expansion’s launch. And it sucked.

Actually, you’re not done if you don’t have every single conduits at 252, if you don’t have every single legendary, every single anima things.

@Tahra-earthen-ring

Always this same faulty argument. Those 2 things have nothing to do with each other.
They just share some ‘time space’. That’s literally all.

Expansions from wrath to WOD didn’t have had systems and end game progressions.
The other way around could be said, ie : the legion way of progression systems are not sucessful, because numbers are proving that, those systems are vastly unpopular.

[Tahra-earthen-ring (Tahra)]

@Shihiroki-kirin-tor

And is that an issue to play for a couple of months ?

Yes.

@Shihiroki-kirin-tor

I mean, wow has been build this way for many years and it looks like the old ways of doing things is more popular than the legion way of handling that.

Not with me. The game is much much better as a basis.
There’s a reason why I quit in WotLK and that was exactly that; nothing to do for a player like me.

@Shihiroki-kirin-tor

Actually, you’re not done if you don’t have every single conduits at 252, if you don’t have every single legendary, every single anima things.

None of those are things I care about.
Conduits are boring and mean almost nothing to me; I slot them and I’m done.

I can only use 1 legendary anyway, so why would I need more than 1? I have the one I like.
Also; upgrading it means having to do the horrible crap that is Torghast. No thanks.

I’m currently working on getting ‘all the anima things’ that I care about. There’s many that I don’t want. And back in 9.0 anima gains were SO low that I just couldn’t take doing it… It was torture. At least that’s a bit better now.

@Shihiroki-kirin-tor

Expansions from wrath to WOD didn’t have had systems and end game progressions.

Yeah they did. WoW has ALWAYS had systems. There has ALWAYS been end game progressions. ALWAYS.

Not exactly LIKE the ones in Legion and beyond, but they had systems and endgame progression. 100% they had them.

@Shihiroki-kirin-tor

The other way around could be said, ie : the legion way of progression systems are not sucessful, because numbers are proving that, those systems are vastly unpopular.

Legion is one of the most popular expansions of all time.
So no, you ‘can’t say’ that.

[Gram-ghostlands (Gram)]

I agree that these bloated systems are a huge problem, but not just for having a complete spec (especially on alts). There is also the issue that concerns me most about recent expansions (Legion onwards) the world itself. Legion had four leveling zone with one maxe level zone at launch. BFA had only three leveling zones with no max level zone at launch.

Back in Wrath we had ten zones, two starting points and no forced linear path. We explored and did quests for various towns, villages, camps, fortresses and what not.
Playing alts didn’t have to be a word-for-word repeat of previous leveling experiences.

They are pouring all their resources into systems on top of rng on top of system with dozens of currencies. Whilst Ignoring the world itself.

[Vert-silvermoon (Vert)]

I’d honestly question if they even have a vision at this point, if you constantly need to re-invent the wheel then your vision is clearly not working or you are incapable of implementing it with these systems. K.I.S.S, Keep It Simple Stupid. Instead of trying to pull of some form of 5D chess, stick to checkers.

Too most players, Wow was at it’s best when it was simple.

[Naethir-antonidas]

@Tahra-earthen-ring

But I like never being done. Being done is boring. Being done is the main reason for canceling my sub.

To be done was a good thing. It allowed you to fully abandon a character for a time and instead concentrate on an alt. Or it actually helped to motivate you to start stuff, because you knew there was an end to doing it. Achievents for example: nowadays I barely bother doing those, because there are so many I don’t feel like I will ever be able to complete all of them - so I don’t even try.

The new design of “never being done” is imo also what ruined pug-ing to some extent. During WotLK you could fill up raid grps easily thanks to ppl playing more alts (but knowing tactics from their main) or doing “old” content for fun with overgeared characters. Nowadays those ppl are missing in pug grps, because they are still pushing their one main character in m+ or higher raid difficulties.

Even if you don’t play raids etc. being done is still good - because it helps to protect you from buring out. Nowadays I have to play all my characters every day, because currency grind / rep grind is never finished; during WotLK you could take one character, push it through content, be relatively quickly done and then go on to the next character. You didn’t have to do the same stuff several times a day, but only several times with each character after a break.

[Tahra-earthen-ring (Tahra)]

@Naethir-antonidas

To be done was a good thing. It allowed you to fully abandon a character for a time and instead concentrate on an alt.

Agree to disagree.
I’ve never enjoyed ‘abandoning my main for an alt’. Never.
My main is the thing I focus on. Always have, always will.
I’ve rolled plenty of alts but none ever amounted to anything once they hit max level. I just feel it’s a waste of time (in a bad way - gaming itself is a waste of time of course) to spend time on an alt when I could be playing my main. I love my main!

@Naethir-antonidas

Achievents for example: nowadays I barely bother doing those, because there are so many I don’t feel like I will ever be able to complete all of them - so I don’t even try.

I’ve never been into doing achievements. They’re meaningless to me unless they reward something I care about (a title I like or some cosmetic thing I want).

@Naethir-antonidas

The new design of “never being done” is imo also what ruined pug-ing to some extent.

Again not something I care about.

@Naethir-antonidas

Even if you don’t play raids etc. being done is still good - because it helps to protect you from buring out.

Playing my main, the character that I love to play, will never burn me out if the content is fun for me to do. So I have to disagree with your statement.

@Naethir-antonidas

Nowadays I have to play all my characters every day

But that’s just it… No. You don’t.
You force yourself to. This is a self-inflicted problem because you want to play the game a certain way. And that is fine, but it’s not fine when you blame the game for something you yourself are doing.

Of course you’re going to burn out if you play multiple characters everyday all day for months on end. That’s not healthy man!

[Quincykun-laughing-skull]

Simply roll back the classes back to MoP times. Every class was insane and OP.

[Amonet-ravencrest]

@Shihiroki-kirin-tor

the max level progression systems introduced with Legion are showing their limits

I get what you mean, and thats borrowed power progressions, however max level progression systems could work in wow they just don’t need to be power related. Like take the covenant system but without the power (skills/conduits/dungeon bonuses/soulbinds), at reaching max level you could continue to earn XP or AP to upgrade the zone/continent you are in and make it easier to travel or unlock stuff, that imo is not bad and should be further iterated on.

And because its a long read I cannot be bothered to quote you on every single point so…

Classes should be reworked- agreed.

The pruning/unpruning is really a made up issue honestly, ok classes had a few too many buttons to press, this was something not every class/spec had, the obvious answer was to just rework the class/spec or to just add more passives instead of actives, not to rework everything. And lets be real here the game more or less goes over a complete overhaul every 3 expansions, you are running out of key binds then bind more keys.

New talent system- ehm i kinda like the flexibility of this one tbh, I don’t like that its so cookie cutter (but hey the last one was even more so). Sooo how about we keep this one and reintroduce the previous one on top of it, learn new spells/abilities by clicking them from the old talent tree which will include only active skills (cataclysm, rushing jade winds etc.) and augment the core spec ones (crusader strike) from the new one which will include only passives (reverse entropy). Also everything is changeable in rested areas, ot to shut up the “but people will change everything from pull to pull” make use of the class trainers again by making them the only ones that can change your talents (for free).