Arcane mage, survival hunrer, guardian/balance druid, UH Dk, BM monk, affliction warlock, outlaw rogue, Arms warrior, holy paladin, and some more all terribly designed and bloated in PvE as well.
What’s wrong with arms, rotation has seemed pretty simple when I’ve played it recently.
i haven’t seen much complaints towards balance druid or arms warrior, i know balance main who is very fine with gameplay and enjoys it. Anyway its 10 specs out of 38 so still it’s not looks bad, especially that wow specs might as well be different classes in terms of gameplay style.
The bleed build has really nothing to do with arms fantasy, and spending rage on arms feels trash. There is another dude having asked for an arms rework in the warrior section of forums, if you wanna check.
Balance has some awkward cancelaura optimisations that really shouldn’t exist but also amount for less than single digit percentages of damage.
I thought we were talking about complexity.
I can agree that thunderous roar as a spell feels really out of place design wise on arms though.
I’m talking about skill floor, not skill cap as much, if you go through my posts. The skill floor of arms is not good, and the class fantasy has nothing to do with arms gameplay. Just badly designed spec overall imo, and arm has an unintuitive degen rotation clearly, even if it’s not “hard” once learnt. It clearly is badly designed.
What’s wrong with bleed for arms fantasy wise?
It’s very realisitc part from master of weapons standpoint lmao. Target vital points, cause bleeding. Large part of kenjutsu is about it, and to be honest any fencing.
It’s a fact, if you don’t understand how league of legends works just don’t engage into conversation. There is also wise tradition in community: unless you link your profile where you are master+ and prefferably on eu server your opinion isn’t worth anything, i’m guessing you don’t play lol at all so your opinion is less than worthless.
Starcraft 2 is a very hard game, but mostly micro wise, lol has much more mechanis in consideration (there are 162 champions), also starcraft 2 mainly 1 v 1 game while lol is always team game, so you engage with human factor on frequent basis.
I think you’re both speaking from two different angles. League is a game in which the players actually can approach the theoretical maximum for the game, the optimisations are possible and so they are learned and done.
WoW PvP has more decisions than league purely by virtue of having more buttons, but optimisation to the degree league can be is so difficult it isn’t even attempted.
WoW is orders of magnitude harder to optimise than LoL because the number of decisions is orders of magnitude larger, paradoxically this makes it easier to actually play against other people because nobody can even begin to try to play at that level.
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No, league is way harder to optimise and has higher skill ceiling, but the skill ceiling of both games is not reached by anyone anyway, and the wow skill floor is trash. The skill ceiling of both games is irrelevant. This discussion is purely about how easy it is to reach a level, where you feel like you understand the game, and in wow this is way way way harder than in league
This I agree with. Your initial point I do not.
However, I do think most people vastly over estimate how much they need to understand about WoW and more specifically what parts of it they need to understand / execute well in order to be “good” at the game.
WoW also does a horrible job of showing that to players.
A new player could take half their buttons off their bar and press them on cd and do better than someone trying to use everything they should be able to but is failing the basics.
Let’s say you watch awc as a viewer. How do you see, which team is winning? You don’t usually, unless you are already really invested in the game, you can’t even comprehend who is winning currently. I can say that I have no clue, who is winning, when I watch awc.
The way to know this usually is simply by tracking and exchanging cooldowns to give yourself kill windows. I know this, but I simply can’t see it, because the amount of cooldowns in the game with CDR abilities is nuts, and there are additionally tons of passives.
It’s simply not, in wow pvp (i’m talking only about arena because it’s the only mode that considered competitive by community) you engage in a small environment in a skirmish where most of the decision are based around how you can kill opposite group before they kill you, in lol your main task is to destroy enemy nexus and you do it by engaging in all sort of decisions micro and macro around large map, i can write essay about league main mode called summoner’s rift, it’s simply will be too time consuming for me to bother
Yes but the number of options available to you is orders of magnitude greater in moment by moment gameplay, which is Ishayo’s point.
oh god no, LoL is far more difficult, strategies and gameplay is defintly more visible to a Spectating eye, however LoLs Mastery is Absolutely Insanely high compared to WoWs,
WoWs skill floor is higher then LoLs however.
In LoL, u can walk in a understand the basics, Lanes, Jungler, Buffs etc etc, however even when looking at Middle tier, the Difficulty is Massive realistically, the thing is the entry bars so Low, its very easy in LoL to not reliese ur ever playing the game wrong, and theres Enough players playing the game that also play the game completely wrong it creates a Illusion.
In WOW the skill floors Higher then LOLs, as its Less Visually understandable and strats and more are far more vague from a outside point of view, making it initally extremely hard to understand, however Once u do the Skill Ceiling isnt much higher.
WoW skill floor needs reducing, but its SKill cap doesnt rly need dropping, the thing is, getting that balance will likely take blizzard a good deal of rounds of trying, because its not a easy feat.
Making classes feel like they have enough to master, to keep players interested and the feeling of progression moving.
but making the skill floors Low enough to grasp at a Entry level of Understanding to visually understand what ur susposed to do.
Isnt a Easy mesh to create and sadly, WoWs required so many reworks, Rebranding of systems and Styles, that its almost impossible to reach, because they dont balance a Philosphy of design for long enough that they reach this level of mastery.
That’s what I said? You misread. Knowledge skill cap in both games is completely irrelevant, because nobody is close to it btw. In such games with almost infinite combinations how a game plays out, skill floors matters the most.
These options are streamlined (is it a right term to use?), there is simultaneously not much going on in wow PvP and too much going on, in league when someone throws skillshot at you there can possibly be like 100 possibilities of what happens next, in wow PvP when someone deals damage to you, you can either receive damage, diminish part of it, become immune to it or outheal it, and that’s practically all.
oh yes. i should have read ur discussion before that statement 
Thing is that they could cut out 30% of all abilities in the game, and I still think that nobody would have reached wow’s maximum skill cap anyway