People want to repeat the same M+ over and over again. Voluntarelly.
What people did not want (and hence the claim “respecting player time”) is to be forced do dailies and repgrinds (something they did NOT want to do) as pre-requisite to the M+ they did want to do.
So your mixing up 2 different things. Grinds (which are normal to have) and Blizz forcing us to do some content we dont wanna do.
That is not really the issue. The issue is that over time, key level would inflate.
So over time, people would have higher and higher keys. Regardless of if they time it or not.
So early in the season everyone has a 15. By the end, nobody has a 15 and everyone has a 25.
If you were a new player, or a player that cant/wont do 25’s then your kinda left behind in the gutter.
But one way to get arround that problem of keys never depleating are the suggestions Linaori. He actually had good idea to ease the pain of depleating keys.
people do that anyways.
if you still need some vault slots and you have the rio or spec that allows to easy find groups, you will probably run more Atal dazar…
i still think the optimal solution would be to have 2 tried before the key depletes.
I do find key depletion on my crappy alts quite annoying because I cannot get good people to queue for my key, so i have to run with bad people and the chance that it will be depleted are much higher on my alts… Depleting an 18 key on my hunter means I will hard struggle to get it up to 18 again because even less people wants to run a 17
you wasted a lot of time for probably no loot, no gold and only 4 crests.
Feels like punishment enough.
The reason we have depletion is probably because of boosting and the top crowd that will run a dungeon 23948752380957205 times till they finally time it on 33.
Maybe depletion was also put in to prevent people getting more rio by finally somehow managed to get carried in that key. Considering 50% of the people are already carried and don’t belong in the key they play, it feels like that it wouldn’t matter for this point at all
No. If keys never depleated then you would have “key inflation”. So right now everyone would have a 27 and that would be the only dungeons being pugged.
If you had trouble finding people for your 18 it would be even worse with no depleates.
But look. I get you. I had a 27 yesterday, and its a 24 now. It took me all week to get it to 27, and in 2h its back to a 24 and I got nothing to show for it.
Its frustrating I know. But the solution is not to remove depletion. The solution lies in what Linaori and others have suggested: Give other alternatives to upgrading your key back to the level you want.
For example, playing some elses key. Or similar schemes.
Maybe that would happen, maybe not. Certainly some people overestimate their skills.
I downgrade my key on purpose many many times as usually I don’t want to run a 22 or in case of my hunter i don’t want to run a 20.
Don’t know if other do the same thing or they generally think they only will play higher and higher even if there is basically no reward.
would be hard. e.g. upgrading back you key if you run another persons key on a higher level would work for those who can get invited to keys, e.g. not my hunter because I do not get an invite to a +20 with 465 ilvl =)
As to the second question, because people would all be doing 20’s because no depletes. Why do your lower key when you can just jump into a higher one because it will never get lower?
I am not seeking to push beyond 20s, for example. Simply because beyond that It becomes unejoyable for me where you have start playing towards perfect. Further, its a matter of skill expression too. By that same logic, you should never have anyone below glad in PvP but you do because its a matter of expression of skill, time and commitment.
But you can’t jump into a higher one? You have to time your key to be able to do that?
And I would still lower my key for: farming a specific dungeon at a specific difficulty to drop an item, for vault, for “chill” runs etc.
Its also fair to point out that overtime average “key” level in LFG increases anyway? A change of such would just make this a bit more deterministic and perhaps pull it back by… 2 weeks? No idea how that is such a significant concern where it justifies the keeping of key depletes.
If someone is skilled enough to push till +20 keys, they will push there and their keys will fluctuate between, say, 18 to 21. There is no major difference or concern where if they would stick to a 20 key.
As a returning player; I am not getting invited to either.
Again, the average key level in LFG increases whether there is no deplete or not. Removal of key deplete would at max just pull such increase back but not by a significant margin.
Furthermore, deplete does not lower a person with 2500+ score’s key down to 5-15 range where returning players would seek invites.
It won’t change anything in the claimed negative ways others are pointing out. For people that want it the biggest positive change will be saving time, which I would argue is a human’s most valueable limited asset.
Removing key depletion is not a high effort job from Blizzard’s part.
So if you save time by not having to do depleated keys and stay in your 20 (or whatever level you choose), then what would happen if everyone does the same?
Why would you choose voluntarely do a 19? Or an 18? And then, if everyone does it… who would do 18s and 19s?
Then if nobody does 18s… the “dungeon pool” in the LFR would be 2s (fresh alt) and 20s. Nothing in between.
I fail to see how that is not something negative for the player base.
Everyone can’t or won’t do the same though. As I’ve mentioned before, me having a +20 key level is an expression of my skill and time commitment. You will always have people doing lower keys simply because thats their level.
And again, I am writing this for the 3rd time, the average key level in the LFG always increases overtime. Right now we don’t have key depletes but my key never went down below +18. It just flactuates between 18-21. How is this any different than staying at 20? There is no difference.
Just because there is key depletion, doesn’t mean me, as someone with 2500+ rio score, is going to deplete it all the way down to 5-10 range. That never happens.
So, whether we have key depletion or not, it does not have any positive or negative effect on new/returning/late players.
When you do this you better remove keys completely and just let people choose. The keylevels per dungeon do not match anyway. Every season we got a couple exceptional dungeons, on the high and maybe the low end.
And how would you determine “their level”? What if you get lucky, or carried, or boosted?
I really cant imagine any world where after getting lucky/pay once, people would voluntarily reduce the level of their key to 15 because “its their level” instead of spamming that 1 18+ they got carried that one time. Rewards are just better.
After repeating the same thing 3 times, you still have to explain how will you factor in legions of people not being honest about “their level”. You have not done that. You only repeat that YOU will limit your own key to a 20 because that is “your level”. What about others?
TLDR: I see so many ways of exploiting that system that I would be extremely surprised that nobody take advantage of it.
And for the record:
I am 100% with you that there is nothing more annoying that depletes. I had a WM27. Its WM24 now… because of 1 tiny mistake and bad RNG with the tree boss.
I healed WM27, 26, and 25 like a champ. And because other people did not do it perfect, well… this week I gained no IO… Annoying yes… could blizz do something about it? 100%.
But your solution might solve the issue of depletes being annoying as hell, but in not way it will benefit the game as a whole. There has to be an alternative solution that does both.
And why is that? Magic?
NO. People simply get better / more geared over time. You should ask yourself: Average key level increases over time IN SPITE of depletes, which is the only thing keeping that number down.
What would a world look like with out the only mechanism to keep average key level low. Think about it for a minute.
Key depletion is not here to prevent players from getting lucky, carried or boosted. In fact, It has nothing to do with that? Why are you even bringing this up? If I am gonna buy a boost, I am gonna buy that boost. Why would having a key depletion function have any effect on that?
I have no idea what you are arguing for exactly here. I am just gonna repeat myself: a person that climbs upto key level 20 will just flactuate between 18-21. Having key depletion in place is not gonna make such people go below 18.
You did not mention a single exploit yet you see multiple ways to exploit it…
No, key depletes are an artificial function that delays the increase in average key levels for people that do one or two runs a day. Often, such people usually give up doing their own keys and seek to join others’ key via LFG.
Removal of this function would not have a significant effect on the average key level in the LFG. At most we would arrive where we would have by seven or ten days earlier. I don’t see why this would be bad in a seasonal game. We are talking about ten days here.
In that you get a +20 boost day 1 of the season and then sit on that key level for the rest of the season. Even if “your level” is a 15.
With key depletion, if you want to continue to do 20s you need to continue to pay. Otherwise, you depend on LFG to find people to “do it for free” sort of speak. And you will deplete the key and go back down to +15 where that individual belongs.
And I mention boost but it could be luck too. No need to get evil with reasons here.
What happens if you do time a 21? What do you do then? Downgrade it to 20 I guess? So the whole mantra is “hope” that people do the right thing?
You dont? Read above. People that should be doing 15s are all of a sudden doing 20s all season. I mentioned two easy ways to exploit that that: Get lucky or pay.
And what causes this “increase in average key levels” over time?
So why would it increase over time (or not) in spite of depletes? Still haven’t answered my question.
When you answer that question, then you can do the followup assessment of what would happen if you remove depletes.
I honestly don’t think people will do this. Either they will constantly fail 20s and lower it, or they have a lower key and recruit for it, making it possible for people to join their key. A lot of lower keys in LFG are people getting their key back up and people pushing their own key higher than their own ability. Both those scenarios will eventually drop back down at some point.
That said, 18s are currently an easy way to get the vault done vs 20s, so it’s still lucrative to do keys at this level.
On the other hand there are also people that are pushing (at their own level) towards +15 keys, or +18 keys etc. No matter the level, a key not being lowered wouldn’t really affect this because those people are simply not making keys at +12, but those pushing +12 aren’t making +8.
It’s not like everyone will suddenly be only doing +20 keys, they will still be in their own key range below 20. I’m expecting the average LFG key level to be 1~2 levels higher than now, but that’s it.
