If Kul’tirans can be priests then the whole them not having a connection to the light argument is rendered MUTE then isn’t it.
If they can be priests, they therefore have a connection to the light, worship the light and have chapels or whatever etc.
Plus the Lore with the order of embers and stuff going on in Drustvar as mentioned by Arctur earlier.
Therefore they should have the possibility to become paladins. Smh.
I disagree, and let me elaborate.
Paladin wields the light and he does it by faith.
Zandalari wield the light beacuase their fight in Loa, and the Loa grant them light-based powers.
Paladins needs to have an order, military organisation bound by strict code. The ones that are proved to be skilled fighters and exceptionally devoted.
And this is what Prelates are- they are elites. They were both exceptional in combat and they were blessed by the Loa. In Order to become a prelate they were trained since the very childhood.
What paladins stands for?
What Prelates do?
What Paladins wear?
What prelates wear?
So no I disagree. The core concept of Paladin is kept it’s the theme that is different.
Instead of praying to Light, they prey to Loa.
Instead of medival knight, you have Imperial mesoamerican holy warrior.
But the very essence is kept the exact same.
On Kul’Tirans I elaborated. I am not against the concept but I know that class won’t give them justice. Same with Sunwalkers.
Honestly, belves are bigger issue because if Light can be stolen then nothing stops us from goblin pallies.
You make great arguments, but I still cannot agree.
You are comparing the Zandalari Prelates to Paladins on Azeroth and I will do the same. All other Paladins, except the Tauren, do not only have faith in the Light but also respect it and worship it for its own sake. The Humans, Dwarves and the Draenei are all good and virtuous because the Holy Light teaches them to be. If they did not have a strong belief in the values of the Light, they wouldn’t have been Paladins. The Blood Elven Paladins have changed significantly since the end of TBC, and are now nearly the same as the rest of the Paladins, except they do not draw their power directly from the Light but from the Sunwell, although they still worship the Light.
The Zandalari are different. Yes, they use the Light but that does not make them Paladins. They do not worship the Light, they worship the Loa. If the Loa were beings more closely connected with the Void, Arcane, Del, whatever, they wouldn’t have been Holy Warriors. Thus, they do not value the Light for its own sake. Neither do they worship the Light itself, they only use the Light merely as a tool, unlike the rest of the races being Paladins.
Now, again, you have given good arguments, but the missing connection with Light, viewing it as an intrinsically valuable power like the other Paladin races makes them not Paladins, but just that, Prelates. And that’s fine, they can use the Light if they wish to do so, but we should not confuse them with true Paladins.
According to the chronicles, they draw power from the Light through the Sunwell.
Sigh, I stand corrected. Although it doesn’t matter for my arguments.
Also, Zakkaru I can see you replying but I’ll have to go to sleep now so I’ll respond to you soon™©®.
Faith in Light is not the most important factor in Paladin. Because Light is a power itself, just like void or Arcane.
In order to get Light powers as elaborated by Blizzard itself you need strong conviction and belief.
Can you please explain how “light” works? The lore states that undead are physically incapable of using the light, much like the Broken, but then we have Forsaken players casting healing spells, and Sir Zeliek in Naxxramas using pseudo-paladin abilities.
Without spoiling too much, we can tell you that wielding the is a matter of having willpower or faith in one’s own ability to do it. That’s why there are evil paladins (for example, the Scarlet Crusade and Arthas before he took up Frostmourne. For the undead and Forsaken, this requires such a great deal of willpower that it is exceedingly rare, especially since it is self-destructive. When undead channel the Light, it feels (to them) as if their entire bodies are being consumed in righteous fire. Forsaken healed by the Light (whether the healer is Forsaken or not) are effectively cauterized by the effect: sure, the wound is healed, but the healing effect is cripplingly painful. Thus, Forsaken priests are beings of unwavering willpower; Forsaken and death knight tanks suffer nobly when they have priest and paladin healers in the group; and Sir Zeliek REALLY hates himself.
So no, I disagree that this is what defines paladin.
Paladin is religious holy warrior. And Loa are holy to trolls.
Not only that, but Zandalari are based on real-life culture that actually had their own paladins/ holy warriors.
So I stand my ground that the very core traits that define Paladins are kept.
It’s the theme (Aztec warrior) and the religion (the Loa Pantheon) is what makes them different.
But all other traits I listed are kept.
each religion have their on take on what is holy and roughly in each one you can find one.
As for Kul’Tirans - they have much more issues. Starting from their presentation as cloth wearing priests that chant like in RL church mass, their role and combat style, and ending in the way how they use those powers.
The set up is interesting, I liked tide sages, but I don’t think shaman class gives them justice, as it’s not just elementalist but also tribal member that performs pegan-like rites.
This is why I am also not fan of goblin and goat shamans.
Same way I like a lot Sunwalkers as idea, but not only it’s trouble to gear them up but abilities not really fit them.
Darn, busted!
Kul Tiras has been the most important Human trade nation for 2.700 years, am I supposed to believe that no one in almost three thousand years ever had the brilliant idea to travel to Kul Tiras and set up their own small church to spread the Faith of the Holy Light?
It really isn’t rocket science to figure out how Kul Tiran Paladins could work.
You REALLY dislike the Draenei, don’t you?
They make sense if you read into the history of Draenor and Draenei - Orc conflict.
This is what differentiates Draenei from Hijackerforged. We can be shamans because we encountered different cultures and learned from them (orcish shamanism). So it makes sense that, following Nobundo’s example, some Draenei turn to the elements. It’s just a different approach to the case than the orcish-like spiritual leader.
This is way Draenei shamans are still shamans while Tauren Paladins are Sunwalkers and so forth.
About the Tidesages I can’t shake off the feeling that mages would be more appropriate… Tidesages were introduced as “sea priests” - cloth wearing, hooded, magic wielding casters.
A Frost specialization would correlate with the fantasy of a Tidesage, while Arcane and Fire would be out of place. But the cloth wearer appearance would enhance the feeling of a Tidesage.
While…
A Restoration specialization would correlate with the fantasy of a Tidesage, while Enhancement and Elemental would be out of place. But the mail wearing totemic warrior appearance will diminish the feeling of a Tidesage greatly…
A former Reply to my post and my response: From Debellatio 120 Human Paladin
I understand your points and they are convincing. However, I don’t see the current tidesages as being the actual Shamans we will get to play in the future. Often, new races can become a certain class based on “Affinity” and a natural knack for it. After they join a faction, they are trained and they become full fledged members.
This is probably especially true for allied races.
We never saw a priest Nightborne. But we do know they have a special affinity with magic. They join the horde, they become priests.
Kul Tiran humans have a natural understanding of the elements (many areas are populated with elementals - at least earth and water ones… I also think I saw a “honey elemental” but I guess they don’t count). They spend time near the water, they study waves and the ebb and flow of tides. They get accepted in the Alliance and they learn their way with the elements.
Whether they’ll trade with spirits (as the merchants they are at heart), cajole them or rely on a bit of intimidation, this is a RolePlay decision that affects your character and your character only.
Me? I’ll dust up my Dark Shaman ensemble.
0000000000000
My Response:
Hey.
Granted an affinity towards the elements (mainly water) is indeed there. However much I keep seeing old gods whenever I look at them, tabard, art, that mountain “sculpture” (it’s as if the “eye” stare at me, provoking me…) that has been there a long time before the sudden change in the “whispers” from “Tidemother”. However, I still find shamans as a class to (in my mind) be more rigid as to what is required to be getting in regular contact with the elements. Unlike how re-re-description of the “light”, that makes paladins a very open question for other class-races combinations (maghar paladin for example, no I don’t like that idea).
With the stance on how the faction you join will affect your practice of already existing affinities to molded into a class identity. I like this perspective, but I need one thing to really like it: time. A good example in my mind is how blood elf warriors came to be, as they were unique as to be the only race not able to play warriors. But in cataclysm (or was it wotlk?) they were added, now I did like the unique aspect as to not be able to play as warrior but, the horde is based a lot on a warrior culture advocating both a new frame of mind and a superb source of “inspiration” for it to be a logical conclusion. The same can be seen for a few race-class combos in cataclysm as troll druids, human hunter and… gnome… hunters….(perfect pray taming predators). If they wait for kul´tiran shamans to added as of… 8.3 as we get the to… the Azshara zone we might get a good interaction with other alliance shaman to get a good look at their interaction and adaptation. However, its also applies to ward my favored class combo priest. There is also a lot of “hope” for kul´tiran shaman to be well developed in the next patch (8.1) as the incursion might well grant tidesages a mighty enlightening spotlight that might alleviate some for my concern. P.S nightborn priest is as old as nightelf priests are and simply remained in their isolationist barriers unchanged for all this time.
Lastly a question, as someone who might want to go for a kul´tiran dark shaman RP look, what can you use to also seem like a tidsage/kul´tiran? So far from the raid sets only storm orieneted sets like Regelia of the Skybreaker (M), Regalia of the Raging Elements (H) and Cyclone Regalia strike me as good looks (the bulky kul´tiran look might change my mind). However the looking at priest raid sets I get a lot of theme right as Mercurial Regalia, Regalia of the Exorcist, Soul priest´s Raiment (N) and Vestments of the Purifier (M)(tidesage rune user :O)
Nah I’m ok with space goat, just not the “shamans”.
They’re like double retcon. And their main theme is light worship and crystal advanced technology.
Apparently the big reason why they can now commune with elements is because one guy was beaten to coma and he realised he can understand elementals now.
So it really looks off for goats to practice “orcish” magic. Because this is how they’re perceived.
And I really wanted to punch that guy that each time In supposed Shaman order Hall he told me to “embrace the Light”.
This is not their thing, and it fits like punch to face. I have no idea whats their totems are supposed to be, and the Twilight Highlands questing experience was for me a nail in coffin- they made this class look like a joke.
Shamanism is not their thing, just look at alternate Draenor or Lightforged. In diferent circumstances they’re completely alien to it.
But Maraad of Ishanah are respectable figures, so I don’t hate the race, even if I joke about them all the time. But I really hate that this combo is so pushed while it’s not really their thing. Their thing is jewelcraftic, their specific technology, Light worship, etc. not “orc magic”.
Sorry, no. I do however find them to fit the Tidesage role more then how shamans are generaly portrayed. They had priests before Kul´trias was “founded” and thru the whispers of the tidemother became the tidesages we know currently.
I enjoy the concept of being a little savage version of a Draenei with my “orcish” magic. Especially that the elements turned to us when the orcs turned on the elements ![:smiley:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/smiley.png?v=6" ":smiley:")
We were the good guys here as Draenei always are \o/
That’s true, but it requires a certain attitude to the Light, something that all races (except the Tauren) have apart from the Zandalari, who almost view the Light as something arbitrary.
Except that ‘holiness’ is not as flexible as you think it is. It doesn’t depend on the perceiver, but on an objective condition, i.e. the Paladin does not see the Light merely as a tool but as something intrinsically valuable.
This is also the reason why Paladins are what they are; they are not agents of justice because they want enforce their own vision of justice, but because they want to deliver the justice of the Light. Paladins are, in a way, interpreters of the Light, like judges are interpreters of the law in a society with a civil law system. There are also Paladins who are misguided in that, but since they still have that relation with the Light we can still call them Paladins.
You can argue that the Prelates interpret the will of the Loa, but I reply that exactly that makes them something different than the Paladins – Paladins serve nothing else than the powers they use, while Prelates worship the Loa instead of the Light.
Note that I am doing the exact same thing as you did, I look at the various races of Azeroth who can be Paladins, and describe their attributes. Apart from the debatable Tauren, all other Paladins have developed a relationship with the Light (even the Blood Knights), unlike the Zandalari Prelates, who use the Light merely as a tool.
Prelates are interesting in their own right, not as a Paladin.
Then if Faith in the Light is not necessary for a Paladin, I don’t see why Kul Tirans can’t be Paladins simply because they mostly worship the Tidemother.
Well what you described fit imo perfectly. The parell between paladin and light is identical with Prelate and the loa.
It’s up to their understanding on how to deliver said servitude is what enables them as righteous.
And I don’t see how is that “the same” as with tidesages when I described where I see their issues. I was not dissing the set up but if the class actually delivers what they stand up for. Their equivalent is in Sunwalkers as Prelates are almost copy of what makes iconic paladin with swap for aesthetic and religion.
But the way they act, they way they fight, they way they dress and the way they worship is the same.
Which honestly cannot be said the same about tidesages and orc shamans for example.
But as I said - it’s not my problem. I won’t play them and I won’t diss them and I won’t be like those human paladin losers that moan about Zandalaris.
I am quite happy that alliance got extra option as they were complainijg that dark iron isn’t really extra option ( for me it’s best for Alliance) but y’know I’m not gonna argue prople’s tastes.
I am not a fan of Light worship I think it’s dull. Hence why I wasn’t able to level Alliance paladin, and for Tauren even if I liked the set up lots of stuff didn’t feel right.
Zandaladin is perfect to me. Everything they have is unique enough to me and I am not bound to any Alliance tropes and Silver hand theme. This is Order in it’s own right that has notging to do with Alliance and their paladins.
With that being said I do hope they will customize spells after they’re done with heritage armor to make the race/class choices more impactful.
So? Orcs didn’t invent Shamanism. And you’ll also have to deal with this problem once you see Zandalari clad in Pandaren armor and invoking the power of the Celestials in that ugly dirty pyramid.
That piramid is made of gold while your city is littered with trash.
So handles bucket and a brush get back to work : )
Our allies aren’t calling our city ugly, whereas your pathetic pyramid is so bad that the Anime Blood Elves (the most stylish and tolerable race by far in that savage and primitive Horde) mock it.
It’s a shame that the clown Mythrax couldn’t finish the job.
Why should I care what human mongrels or mana addicts think? All of them are jelous of beautiful heritage that Zandalari have which is unquestionable.
Get back to your fish littered stinky port.
You are again implementing some flexibility in the notion of a “Paladin” that does not exist… Paladins serve the Light, not the Loa. They deliver justice in the name of the Light, not the Loa.
But I think enough words have been said about the matter… we’re not going to agree and we shouldn’t spend our time on a discussion like that.
I strongly believe that a Zandalari Paladin is like a Protestant without a relationship with God, or a Buddhist who lives a buddhist life without accepting the Four Noble Truths… they are Prelates, not Paladins.
And that is fine, and we wouldn’t have this discussion if they weren’t called ‘Paladins’ in-game.
Agreed.
I think it is one of the most interesting aspects Azeroth, especially the Church of the Holy Light, but to each their preferences.