“The more restrictive the game gets the more creative people will get” That just sound like what a true TROLLER would say.
This would solve the issues.
Or maybe learn the toxic one (for example) that when you get that first hour penalty, then two hours, then suddenly 10 hours, theeeeen 1 day of not being able to enter dungeons. Then 2 days. You will eventuell give up.
It’s not so much about leaving the key. You are as anyone else entitled to play the game as you enjoy. It just doesn’t include “at the cost of other players enjoyment”.
So the real issue is that you don’t feel you should inform the other members of the group that you intend to leave if the key will not be in time. And by this you might ruin other peoples joy. Because they couldn’t make an informed choice to invest, or not, their time and effort into something that might not complete.
It’s all about playing with like minded people. You’ll have an easier time finding out if people are or not by talking matters over. Like in real life.
Randoms are also people - even if they value or need other things than you do. Their joy is as important to them as yours is to you. You have no right to take from them theirs just because you feel like it.
Wut, did you read the topic or…? That is EXACTLY what he did…
Also, this form of communication goes both ways.
If someone does not say anything other than “+12” when forming a group, why do we have to guess whether they intent to ignore a significant part of the M+ system (timer) or not?
I don’t believe that’s true; Most of the groups advertise with RIO score requirements OR they don’t and will check your RIO score on their addon and decline you based on that information.
So the only way to ignore the existence of RIO is by doing it with guildmates or friends; If you don’t have the people from your guild or friends to do it with you’re basically stuck with yourself.
Which means you have to obtain a key yourself from regular Mythics and afterwards make a group for the +2/3 you got. However even then there will be a lot of people that don’t bother signing up as they’re looking for a higher key or they see your RIO score and don’t even join.
Your options are pretty much the people that are down at your level; Which isn’t necessarily bad but it does limit your options and chances of getting a decent group together to push the key.
Back when I was focused on raiding and my M+ score was like 500 because I only did a few M+ for the weekly chest during Eternal Palace days, even though my ilvl (430-435) was good enough for that level of keys people declined me on basically every dungeon I signed up to. One day I counted the amount of times I got rejected, one time I got rejected 30 times before I got accepted by a group doing +5.
So saying RIO can be ignored is a load of bull
You basically change your mind every few sentences.
Truth is: you can completely ignore the existence of raider.io and nobody forces you to use it. I don’t have that addon installed, I don’t check people and I get invited to +15s/+16s just fine which is about as high as I care to do.
What I’m referring to is the fact that the influence RIO scores have is not something that can be ignored unless you’re completely oblivious of it’s existence but that quickly changes when you open up the Group finder and get that slammed in your face immediately.
Friends are not always on the same level, same faction, not available or not interested in doing M+. Same goes for guildmates (except for the different faction part). So in that case you will have to pug your own key or find others that have one.
What do you think the psychological impact it has on people when you get declined for every party in the groupfinder? The example where I got invited after being declined 30 times was as a frost mage when it was one of the sought after class/spec for M+ on most affixes (pre-nerf Blizzard etc.).
I had similar experiences on other days and most of the time I just gave up trying to find a group, because it was a fruitless effort and just made me feel bad. That was before I realized there were communities for this exact thing.
Remember: Some people don’t even know the Communities feature exists at all and think there are just Guilds. I had to explain this feature to several people when I invited them to one and the most common reply I got is that they don’t want to leave their guild.
Let me reiterate: I’m not stating it’s impossible to do M+ without the addon or the influences of it. But it does make it significantly harder to get invited to a party or have decent enough people to join yours. In other words you have to go out of your way to find people to do it with like joining communities to get yours done when guilds/friends can’t provide you the people.
It’s plain ridiculous that people blindly look at a RIO score or Curve achievement for keys up to M15+, which basically tells you ZERO about the person’s skill unless it’s far above the general boosting levels. (2200+ RIO score I’d guess)
Just take a look at the Gallywix Discord, there’s 38.000 people in there, the majority is there to buy boosts in M+/Raids… those same people will sign-up with their 1700+ RIO score on groups and get invited without ever having to show a modicum of skill, ruining keys along the way because people base their picks on an arbitrary number. You are severely downplaying the influence the scores have on gameplay.
You dont need the addon at all. People see your rio-score with their addon. The only thing that happens when you do not have it, is that you do not see THEIR scores.
Good point. But that goes the other way aswell:
Be up front about doing max 20k DPS. That its common that you die 10+ times per run since you struggle a bit with not standing in stuff etc.
For ppl who try to time it a person like that ruins the fun aswell.
My point is that people see your score and decline/invite you based on that. I know you don’t need to use the addon yourself, but the influence it has on MY gameplay is still there; Addon installed OR NOT.
The main difference is that I now know WHY I get declined, other people don’t unless somebody makes them aware of it.
I have myself the love/hate relationship with raiderio. I find it a fun semi accurate log of dungeons i have done myself. But i also think there are problems with it, especially the total score.
Peoples knowledge of the existence of it is something else 
And? Ofc it doesn’t show how skilled someone is, the data is far too minimalistic for that. However, it both tells you much more than if you just look at their ilvl.
The fact that you can get HC level gear for no effort, thát is ridiculous.
It only tells you somebody once finished a certain level of M+ at some point on that character. However the boosted character still got the RIO score and loot that goes alongside it.
Somebody with zero skill but enough gold can do the following:
So you can have somebody sitting on 470+ ilvl with zero skill, with a decent enough RIO score and curve and he’ll still be invited over people that don’t have any of them BUT are skilled at their class.
RIO score under 2200 is pointless to look at as it can have extremes on both ends: Good players with low RIO score and bad (boosted) players with high RIO score.
Warcraftlogs is the only source that gives you an idea of their skill level but I doubt many boosters log the raids and put them on public.
Well you made the topic to demonstrate that you are the problem, i once did a +11 (the first month of 8.3) with pugs, it was Waycrest and we finished the dungeon after 1 hour and a half with 63 deaths, that was the most enjoyable depleted key i have ever done.
I never leave a key no matter how long we stay, people be learning from mistakes so they avoid it next dungeon, not everyone is hard core, rio players.
You can talk about boosting and buying items, someone’s Rio score or Curve achievement tells you more than just ilvl. In case of M+, it even tells you more than the information available on a char’s armory page.
Yes, logs would give a more detailed view in someone’s performance. But even that is incomplete.
Rio/curve has nothing really to do with skills or performance. It just shows experience. It is simply the best we have since, again, ilvl does not say anything and logs are either not available for every fight or it simply takes too long to analyse it when you form a group.
Rant about achievements/rio all day, they just need to fix the real problem ^^
Not to mention that these situations often end up with a form of comradely between you and the other players even if it didn’t go all too well.
I once did a +7 Underrot in 8.1 as a Warrior tank that took 1.5 hours with like 80+ deaths; Two of the 4 players were apparently women in their 60’s enjoying the game. I still talk to them up to this day after that run and I don’t bother myself with telling them they’re bad at the game.
I still help them out sometimes when they need their weekly done with 2 others I know (tank+dps)both have 2600+ RIO score and me as healer. So we tend to make it on time or just not make it on time but still feels a lot better than the sperginess some people find interesting.
I have my own community with over 500 members and help people out with their weeklies quite often.
I talk about boosting because it completely invalidates the scores up to a certain level which usually is at a +15 timed clear which gets you to around a 1800~ score if you done every dungeon at +15.
Logs don’t give you the entire picture either especially with lucky RNG corruptions, buffs/nerfs going on but you can still get other information out of them like basic class rotation, cause of deaths, damage taken, positioning etc.
Perhaps if people can mark themselves as booster/boostee on RIO it would give a better picture of how somebody obtained their score but that would in turn bring up a new problem where some boosters ask more gold in turn for not marking the run as boosting.
But anyway what is the real problem in your opinion?
So you prefer a raid log over experience in a dungeon? raid log says completely nothing about the specific dungeon knowledge. And there are a lot of mechanics in there.
Where do I mention that? lol… A raid log shows the competency of a player during specific encounters INSIDE THAT RAID. Which is MORE than oh he has 1800 RIO score.
Asking for a +15 atal tyrannical and the player has multiple timed +15 dungeons and atal around that number or even ‘just’ on a 14 tyr is far more interesting than some raid log.
There is no absolute truth here, but in my opinion a big problem is the gearing process and the Blizzard UI.
Gearing process:
You can get a certain item level from multiple sources (like Mythic+, Raids, Darkshore, 4x mythic-0 quest, …). Add the current Neck and Cloak and your ilvl rises rapidly. So having a certain item level means close to nothing.
Blizzard UI:
And then we have M+2-25. The Blizzard UI is so great that you do not get any information about anyone queueing up for your group apart from…dum dum dum the useless item level. Ofc you want to know someone’s experience when you try to push a certain key. And well, the Armory does not help much either, esp not if you have some (esp if those are your highest) un-timed runs.
So in my opinion it all comes down to making the gearing process more clear. Stop tossing those 460+ items at us for doing nada-noppes-nothing. Scrap the power-creep systems like TF/WF/Corruption (seems to be the case in SL, but still). Don’t have items that scale up far beyond your average ilvl (neck/cloak in BfA, Legendaries in Legion). etc. etc.
But, a little more information about the sign-ups without having to rely on a 3rd party would also be nice - although this would lead to the exact same " issue " as we have now, at least according to some.