When it comes to the Lore sometimes with retcons it makes one feel as though there is no reason to follow it as they are going to change it anyway.
News of the upcoming Light Undead seems to be a massive retcon.
Before the Undead were abominations to the Light that were purged and harmed by it.
But the main focus of the Forsaken Problem is: Can the Forsaken even be considered a Horde faction?
For the living the effects of time leads to eventual death of old age. But for the Undead rot and decay leads to permanent death.
So. There are probably very few if any Lordaereon Undead left among the Forsaken.
The current Forsaken as they exist today are just Alliance Undead.
There was the campaign in Silverpine Forest where the Gilnean Humans were forced to take on the curse of the Worgen as this prevented them from being forced into Undeath. Where even Garrosh Hellscream turned a blind eye to.
Since then the Horde have been forcing Alliance dead into the Forsaken. Stormwind Gilneans Kul Tirans. Since Battle for Azeroth now Night Elves are Undead. How long until Dwarves and Gnomes join the ranks of the Forsaken?
Despite Shadowlands blowing open the door for the deadlands and the after life. Blizzard seemed to have created a rule that Alliance Undead join the Horde.
Derek Proudmoore died fighting the Horde but in Undeath and after torture and torment joins the very Horde that done that to him.
While faction strength does grow stronger and weaker.
How strong are the Forsaken now currently?
They seem to have no problem taking on Alliance races on their own. Stormwind - Gilneans - Night Elves - Kul Tirans.
Are the Forsaken now the strongest faction of the Horde?
The conquest and enslavement of Derek Proudmoore sends a clear message to the Alliance that some day you will become Horde Undead anyway.
What path will the Forsaken take now that Sylvannas is gone?
Would the Forsaken welcome Sylvannas return?
In Mists of Pandaria raid. Should the Horde group wipe on the landfall with Sylvannas and Lorthemar, then Lorthemar is raised into Undeath by Sylvannas and is horrified by what he had become.
You know…the funny thing is that the alliance at that point in time didnt even do anything. There was some sort of “contact” which we dont know the outcome. They only got active when the forsaken joined the horde and started to fight the surviving people around them.
I think looking for a coherent worldbuilding and storytelling in the current state of the game is pointless. It’s like a modern painting, they randomly throw paint on the canvas, and then say it’s a river with a mill next to it with people. The same way they make smaller, isolated stories, where in each has it’s own global narrative, which easily leads to that these separated stories, lore-lines contradict each other.
This happened to the lore of the forsaken, the way of being undead in general. It started in BfA, but the full wtf happen in Shadowlands. If you have played the rts, the older expansions, the old wowwiki page (the current wowpedia reeks with the the new retcons) , it’s clear that being an undead is one, if the worst that can happen to you, deforming you from the inside out, you stuck in the midele of existance, you are no longer part of living world, but also can’t move on to the afterlife. And this easily explains why most of them hates, distrust the world of the living (at least how it is was back then)
But the superb writing in SL completely messed it up. I gues in 2020 it was not nice to say even to fictional people that they are malfomed, cursed, with a high tendeny to do evil, they simply removed un-part, and the forsaken, the death knight, the resurrected night elves were no longer cursed, just simply not living. (the same way they removed the moral concept of necromancy).
Ther are obviously more aspect to it, that needs to be taken into consideration, but generally speaking, the old lore of the forsaken and the undeath is now gone with the wind.
It is gone to the wind because of Blizz politically correct trend. Blizz, WOW is just a game, you do not have to be pollitically correct and to follow all the real life trends. You don’t have to go to an extreme point also but common, stop with this mess you created, alliance and horde fighting side by side, saving the universe etc.
Why respond to a thread you don’t bother reading?
The living see the dead as an abomination though. Mists of Pandaria - Siege of Orgrimmar raid - Son of Galakras boss. Horde group wipes then it Sylvannas raises Lorthemar as Undead. Something he is not too happy about.
Zelling willingly choosing to become Undead seems to be another retcon.
As the curse of Undeath is something that was forced on to others. So the Forsaken now became the very thing they fought against. Now this curse is optional state of being… Not so bad really once you get used to it.
The “Alliance and Horde fighting together” is result of an unfortunate reality: The faction balance is incredibly lopsided (In upper tier content, anyway), so lumping all players together without a faction line keeping them apart is a necessity, and the story is changed to justify that from a lore perspective, which does indeed lead to messy bits, since the BfA pre-amble was quite divisive…
This is not something that is touched on as well.
The curse of Undeath should change everything about the person. At least with the Helm of Domination this could be explained. Memories of your life becomes meaningless as through the helm you are just slaves in Undeath.
Fear of this slavery in Undeath is what caused the Alliance and Horde to face the Lich King and the Scourge in Northrend in the first place.
So the very people - nations - cities you once fought and died for. Now the memories of such no longer matters and you are forced to watch helplessly. Like Sir Zeliek the former Paladin of the previous 4 horsemen.
The Death Knight starter quest also showed this where players kill someone that once knew them when thery were alive.
At some point Horde interests will clash, So the Alliance Undead will now have to take on the Alliance living. So it seems to be more of an Alliance civil war - the living vs the dead than the usual faction conflict.
There are several layers to this. Yes activists push politics and real world current day issues into things which leads to the death of escapism.
However the neutral player base do exist. So Blizzard are trying to square that circle. Does faction lines and boundaries matter or not?
The Pandaren were asked to choose between Alliance and Horde when they were first introduced. It is one thing to blur the lines between factions it is another to do away with them completely.
Not everyone took to the cross-faction gameplay. But the hand holding between Alliance and Horde to face the latest big bad evil. Is tiresome. Which is why Battle for Azeroth was so refreshing. Yes there is a war going on. But the Alliance had their thing on Kul Tiras while the Horde had their thing on Zandalar.
Two independent global superpowers with unique interests - challenges - races - cultures etc…
My problem is… https://i.imgur.com/0meRu7J.jpeg https://i.imgur.com/jvsWegi.jpeg
My char looks naked. Thats OK. It distract the opposite guys in PvP.
The skin color + flesh + dress.
Then the question becomes: How much can you retcon something before it stops being what brought people in?
For example: If you put orange juice in a Coke a Cola can or bottle. This does not make it Coke a Cola. People recognise the Coke a Cola taste.
It is almost as bad as Games Workshop recent retcon of female Custodes. After over 30 years of lore - content - plastic miniatures that demonstrate the Adeptus Custodes were always male. Bam current year retcon “Since the first 10000 there have always been female custodes”. Caused such loses that the Chief Financial Officer left.
But to bring it back to WoW.
Is Undeath still a curse? Seems like this has also been retconned.
It seems more like a way of being now. In life those that called upon the Light the Light will answer them. But in Undeath the very Light they once called upon now harms them as they call upon it. This is what seperated Forsaken Undead from other Light users. Their strength of Will to call upon the Light to heal and aid their allies when to do so brought them pain and harm.
Blizzard understood how badly Shadowlands hurt the lore as a whole. But if it is fixable then they should try to do it.
What makes fantasy worlds sustainable is the consistency. Some element of consistency as you build on top of that.
Like if Superman all of a sudden eats green kryptonite like candy. This is not consistent to almost 100 years (86) of writing.
Then when it comes to the Forsaken the playerbase are in Uncharted territory.
It seems clear that the Forsaken are the most powerful faction of the Horde.
The Horde is no longer under Orcish leadership. They do not even have a race leader for some time now since Garrosh Hellscream. You see Thrall no longer desires to rule and is a figurehead at best.
For whatever reasons the Horde has been democratised.
But with an almost inexhaustible supply of Alliance dead. The Forsaken will just continue to grow stronger and stronger.
Especially since Blizzard has not given the Alliance a way to protect Alliance dead from the Horde and the Forsaken.
Horde leaders have no problem with Alliance being raised into Undeath. But with the battle for Lordaeron there were no Horde voices that spoke against Horde being raised into Undeath.
With the Loa Bwonsamedi of the Zandalari Trolls and news of these Light Undead. The Forsaken have alternative options to create more Undead. So the Val’kyr that followed Sylvannas does not harm the Forsaken’s ability to create more Undead.
Girls were already playing Warhammer. Activists in Games Workshop knew what they were doing as they chose to gaslight the paying customers and fanbase.
It is like claiming that Superman was always immune to Green Kryptonite. When 86 years of comic books - movies - games - tv shows says otherwise.
Just because they have the power to do so. Does not mean that it would work out. Consistency is important. Yes build on top of what has already been made but do not damage the foundation that things are built upon.
My point is that with Retcons, sometimes trying to Square the Circle no does not work.
The Light Undead is no different to say Void Elf Paladin.
The Void and the Light are supposed to be antithetical/enemies to each other. Now they are not for some reason? Explain.
With so many Alliance Undead. The Forsaken can not be considered a Horde faction anymore. The living Lordaereons will probably not relplenish their number. Despite them fleeing to Alliance nations. Such as Stormwind and Kul Tiras.
I can see your point of view re Warhammer, but I don’t agree with it. I’ve been collecting & painting since the Womble helmet days but it’s long past time women were represented to feel more included. Society is changing - and has to change - so changes to lore, retcons, whatever you want to call them, have to happen too. If the existing fanbase is so misogynistic that they can’t share their toys, good riddance to them. I understand it’s hard to see changes, but they are necessary.
As for the Forsaken, I prefer the Classic version, but I’d also get rid of the Factions altogether, so the debate would be moot.
WoW Youtubers are already putting out information of the Alpha tests. People such as Nobbel87 and Doronsmovies showing concept and model art of what Light Undead looks like.
Some of it just like regular Undead with similar Light markings that the Lightforged Draenai has.
Being Undead means that they can not reproduce. So without the Valkyiir the Forsaken will struggle to replenish their numbers. Time will eventually reduce their numbers due to rot and decay.
But the Forsaken farming Alliance dead just makes them an Alliance faction.
There are many problems with this way of thinking.
Those that push for “Diversity” tend to discriminate the most. Look at current Disney getting sued for discrimination by some of it’s staff on the basis of skin color and sex born as. Those that push for “Inclusion” they Exclude everyone that does not think like them.
There is more gaslighting and buzzword terms that ends up with destroyed franchises. Those that come to enjoy the hobby are welcomed. Those that come to change the hobby to fit their own agendas despite the damages caused by the changes are not welcomed.
It is no different to claiming that: There has always been female Orks / There has always been Males in the Sisters of Silence & Males in the Sisters of Battle. Then branding people that object to female Orks as misogynists and Male Sisters of Silence / Sister of Battle as Anrophobic. It is a silly argument.
Trying to square the circle does not work. Female voices also object to the female Adeptus Custodes and retcon that damages the lore.
It is very strange that ONLY by changing everything to suit this agenda or that agenda can some people ever FEEL represented.
These changes actively harm the setting as a whole as. Warhammer stocks have fallen since the retcon. If these changes are harming the franchise as a whole then how is this a positive thing?
Similar thing happened to Saint’s Row reboot. Now Saint’s Row and Volition is dead as a company and franchise.
It is not different to attacking those that object to the idea of Superman becoming immune to Green Kryptonite. Can show you content after content of where Green Kryptonie actively harms and weakens Superman.
Let’s assume your Strawman is correct. That the Warhammer fanbase are a den of misogynists.
Good riddance to paying customers?
Unfortunately customers - market audience - fanbase are essential components to the survival of and running a successful company.
There are a lot of tourists that come in to just push their own agendas. Such as advocating that WARhammer should no longer be about War but instead focus on Romance. Not all changes are positive, like driving into oncoming traffic is technically a change…but it can be avoided for good reasons.
It is possible to enjoy content without being “represented” by said content. Sonic the Hedgehog movie one and two were box office success. No humans are “represented” by a talking Blue Hedgehog that runs very fast.
Fantasy and Escapism exists because people that consume content are not “represented” by it. Those that need to be represented could be the problem.
The Forsaken have a large following and there are many fans of Sylvannas. That it is inevitable that Sylvannas returns in some way. But what would getting rid of the factions actually do?
World of Warcraft is a 20 year franchise. Faction pride / faction identity has been essential to WoW as a whole. The player character through the factions and races experience World of Warcraft.
Many conversations / arguments / debates for 20 years have been sparked by one question: Are you Alliance or Horde?
You have to replace the factions with something. Otherwise it will fall apart.
No and they never really did. From the very beginning Blizzard have failed to properly portray the faction war. Lets even go back to the start of WoW, how many people even know why we are fighting after WC3 TFT, because there was a reason given… in a book.
So to my point, the faction war never really mattered. Yeah there were skirmishes between A and H, but every single time at the end of the day we joined forces to defeat the big bad. Hell we even had 2 expansions that focused on this conflict and ended up with us holding hands.
And finally exhibit C your honor. Nothing will ever come out of a faction war. In MoP we found that no matter what both factions will always survive, we will never have a winner. The Alliance have won every single war after the initial one and yet Horde still stands. Yet another faction war will just be stupid with the logical out comes being A stops H and we are asking ourselves why are we doing this again when this should have ended in MoP or in BfA, or H stops A and we are asking why is this happening when we could have won in MoP or BfA.
Also I am not advocating for the deletion of one faction or the other, just saying that the faction story never worked and won’t ever work.
What Blizzard should do is focus on race specific stories and conflicts. Maybe the next time Orcs decide to chop down some trees The Alliance and Horde don’t get involved and the conflict is only between NEs and Orcs. Racial tensions are fine, faction wars are not.
It does not necessarily have to be a faction conflict or war. But both factions are unique. Blizzard are quick to introduce allied races. However they have not done anything with them since membership into the Alliance and Horde.
Small scale conflicts are one thing. Can even have race conflicts that does not involve both factions as a whole. Such as when Gilneans and Forsaken were facing off against each other during Legion.
This is the problem with the story telling. No matter what happens Alliance and Horde will be holding hands anyway. To face the big bad evil.
Having different goals and objectives of both factions could really flesh things out.
The Trolls making sure to protect the Loa is a Horde problem as Loa are a power source for Troll kind. Drakkari and Prophet Zhul depowering the Loa is a threat that has to be neutralised.
Tidesages finding Emmerseus the source of the life giving waters of the Vale of Eternal Blossom. So that the former plaguelands could be restored. Even Voldun returning from the barrent desert it became to the lush jungles it once was.
It feels like both faction are chained by the hip and not free to explore our own goals and objectives.
But this is the problem with the retcons. The more you think about it the more the Forsaken are the most powerful faction of the Horde. Just farm Alliance dead and grow stronger.
Undeath does not seem to be a curse anymore. Shadowlands did not properly show the difference between the dead that are in the dead lands and the dead that are trapped among the living but in an Undead state.
The curse will be inflicted on others. The rest of the Horde are fully complicit in this.
The Alliance exists because of the Horde. But yes it is best to have goals and objectives outside of stopping the latest Horde atrocity.
However the main thing will be stopping Alliance dead from becoming part of the Forsaken.
I didn’t pay much attention to SL, what happened to the Val’kyr, how many of them are left? Didn’t we kill the last 3? I mean they were the only way that the forsaken had to create more undead. Are they even creating more undead with the new leadership?
It still is but on a different level. They still rot and have to replace body parts.
I wouldn’t say they are particularly strong because logically speaking they are rotting corpses, no muscle mass or bone density (talking about the regular undead, not DKs or whatever Nathanos or Sylvanas were). In most media the strength of zombies/undead was numbers and the ability to easily multiply, in WoW, the Forsaken at least, don’t really have the numbers and the procreation method is really finite (if there even is one still). And I really doubt the Na’ru will be very willing to be turned into a conveyor belt for Light forged undead.
Molty have you tried preaching in church? i bet you would’ve been exceptional in this line of work
That’s why you dedicate all your posts on this forum to fearmongering and preaching “dangers of woke” or some other western european incel crap? sounds like discrimination to me
It can be done well just like in Wotlk, where they fought together reluctantly, with frictions still clearly visible.
But yeah we’re probably not having that back, giving how the two factions keep sucking each other off for no reason whatsoever. The Gilneas scenario was horrible.