Let us discuss the Forsaken problem

Community General Discussion
61

Duuh that’s rough

Okay first and foremost

Saying that gods “don’t exist” doesn’t says that “we certainly don’t have any sort of creator”, it might as well even be someone who made us on accident, just pulled a little bit evolution on the right track.
Or maybe not, it’s all theories.

Agnostics belief is still theological, so basically higher forces are here but its not any of the conventional religions

No

You can also Google what theology and gnosis means, because aTHEISM and aGNOSTIC are derivatives from them

62

I think they need to answer what is it exactly that turns them to the Horde?

Did Calia go to the Horde? Not really, she just wanted to be with “her people”.

Did Lilian turn to the Horde? Only during BfA because faction war purposes, she was more of a free agent before then and I guess she wasn’t exactly going to be welcomed into the alliance and then again “my people”.

The humans that Sylvanas raises as an example of the power to Garrosh in Silverpine… they are ex-scarlets and just readily accept being undead? Is that Val’kyr mind control?
I think it’s basically a plothole.

The Nelf Dark Rangers turned to the Horde… why? They would so openly work with the people that destroyed everything? Makes no sense to me. These are in fact more interesting because they supposedly chose to become undead.

In the Silverpine example, people have no choice whether they are brought back from death or not. Yet, later, we go and take a Val’kyr after destroying Teldrassil and try to raise Nelves and sometimes the Val’kyr says “There are no willing souls nearby” implying they -do- have a choice. Is this solely because all souls went to the maw after Legion?

Just blargh. Headache inducing.

63

To me athiest = no belief in religion and agnostic = there is something spritual but I don’t support any of the current religions.

So tell me, what to you is the word for someone who has absolutely 0 religious or spiritual belief?
Because I don’t believe in diddily squat.

64

Humanity isn’t ready for this kind of materialism.
But true word is that this person doesn’t believe in anything, atheism is belief

65

Okay, whatever, onto more interesting things.

66

You never participated in philosophical debates in your university? This crap is for schizos

67

No because I think it’s all a load of rubbish and trying to convince people otherwise is a waste of time. People will think what they want.

Calling random people schizophrenic is a bit rude though.

68

I called myself schizo because i participated in those debates too

69

That doesn’t make using mental health conditions as slurs okay.

70

it makes it funny i know

71

I will explain it this way. Lore will always be important. It is often what gets people involved and what retains/grows the fanbase.
Which is why mishandling the Lore and careless retcons can and does harm a franchise.

It is clear the motivations as to WHY the “Since the first 10000 there have always been female custodes”. To explain to the non Warhammer people. Games Workshop are the owners and creators of the Warhammer franchise they are a company created and based in Nottingham England that is very successful. They sell (crazy expensive) plastic miniatures their main trade but have since grown.
Warhammer came out in 1987 so there is almost 40 years of lore. Until current year shenanigans there have NEVER been female Custodes. Now Activists/Tourists whatever you want to call them are trying very hard to square that circle by retconning the Lore. But those darn pesky fans that are invested still have the pre-retcon content that proves they are retconning everything.

Of all the various factions of Warhammer 40K (Seperate to Warhammer Fantasy) the most iconic and popular ones are the Adeptus Astartes = The Space Marines. Sales and more reflect this.
So there have been years of attempt to invade/take over Warhammer 40k. By calling for Female Space Marines. Some thing that has been rebuffed and refuted by male and female fans. There are no female space marines.
In regards to effectiveness. 1 Space Marine/Astares is worth 100k regular soldiers. But 1 Adeptus Custodes is worth an entire chapter 1k of Space Marines/Astartes.

So retconning this is as silly as claiming Garrosh Hellscream Warchief of the Horde secretly worked for the Alliance all the time.
To give an example of how mishandling the lore produces bad outcomes. Star Wars franchise began 1977. So almost 50 years of content. Yet not once could ANY force user fly. But Star Wars the Last Jedi had (former Princess) Leia Organa flying through space like a Kryptonian. Something that hurt the lore and the Star Wars setting.
This would mean that in Disney era Star Wars force users can fly like Kryptonians now. Through space and in atmosphere.

I could go on about how Activist/Tourist care nothing for participating in the hobby only to change the hobby. That EXCLUSIVELY female organisations are ignored such as the Sisters of Battle and the Sisters of Silence. Sisters of Silence just NOPE all Psychic abilities. Even being in their presence is unsettling for most and they hone their physical combat skills to near super soldier levels. Imagine 4 v 1 Guldan Jaina Mediv and Khadgar and you can just NOPE all of their magic abilities. That is a rough idea on the Sisters of Silence.

When you invest in something you are concerned on some level what direction it heads in. Which is why Games Workshop are never going to Square that Circle. Just as nobody is going to believe that Garrosh Hellscream was ALWAYS working for the Alliance or Arthas Menethil was ALWAYS an Orc. Absolutely nobody believes that “Since the first 10000 there have always been female Custodes”.

Retcons and power sources are important.
The Light and the Void clashing and having a big bang kind of is the origin for the creation of the WoW universe. So retconning a fundamental force of creation such as the Light is a very big deal.
Before the Light would face off against Demons - Void - Fel - Undeath. Chip away at the foundations causes whatever is built on top to crumble.

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72

Custodes are meant to be more than “elite warriors”, elite warriors are space marines, each custodes is unique and handcrafted genetically by emperor himself, they aren’t just cool fighters, they are also experts in cultural stuff such as art, singing and choreography, damn they even created to look visually appealing while

Primarchs are warp entites trapped in biological bodies. Different purposes, different method of creation, custodes were drafted from terra aristoctratic families, primarchs were created in a lab.

So why you actually discuss is it destructive to make some custodes female if you are wrong on so many accounts and apparently didn’t read lore at all?

Stop this rubbish, slaanesh isn’t about femininty and women

73

You touch on the importance of consistency and explanations. X is the new normal so deal with it. Does not actually work.

The Horde are the Undead faction. Zandalari Trolls with Bwonsamedi Loa have access to Undead and might aid the Horde as new members.

Calia Menethil…I would say it is guilt. She is a survivor of the fall of Lordaeron but she is a poorly written character. She abandoned and did not help her people in life. So she chooses to help her people in Undeath?

Clearly she is a placeholder for Sylvannas Windrunner. With her popularity among the WoW playerbase. Sylvannas will certainly return.

Battle for Azeroth caused both Lilian Voss and Rexxar to choose a side. Rexxar was originally Horde and led the Half Orcs Half Ogres. However left the Horde as they rampaged across Azeroth to live in the wild with his beasts / pets.

The curse to raise someone into Undeath probably can break and enslave them aswell. Domination magic is a relatively new thing. But becoming slaves in Undeath has been a consistent theme now.

Yeah that is also bad writing. Betrayed by your goddess that did not save you from the Horde is one thing. But joining those that murdered you is another.
It was probably a hasty decision to add more than humans to the ranks of the Forsaken. The way Blizzard is continuing the Forsaken might look more like the Knights of the Ebon Blade. Except not all exclusively Death Knights.

Which is why consistency is important.
Should enough people get sick and tired of what is going on. Then nothing matters since everything will be retconned anyway.
How far will the go? Maybe there was no point in casting out Void Elves and now they can go swimming in the Sunwell. Despite their connection to the Void/Shadow.
Ah that was the OLD lore that had Light and Void reacting very badly to and being enemies of each other. Now anything goes.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
That Warlock is trying very hard to derail the thread and make it into a real world religion and philosophy discussion. Instead of keeping it WoW based. Such as what the races actually pray to Like Elune - The Earth Mother - The Loa etc…

Incorrect. The Adeptus Custodes are vastly superior to the Adeptus Astartes / Space Marines. Even the Primarchs that are considered demi-gods in their abilities and cognition. Will find any Custodes more than a match for them.

Yes it is wrong. The process of simply becoming Astartes let alone Custodes many die in the attempt. So the physical differences between Male and Female humans DOES come into play. Which is part of the reasons way that for roughly 37 years there were no female Custodes.

Retcon of this magnitude as I have stated is no different to trying to convince the WoW player base that Arthas Menethil was ALWAYS an Orc.

Slaanesh is actually about excess. Things taking to the extreme. But the Eldar that birthed Slaanesh the youngest of the Chaos gods always refers to her as “SHE who thirsts” since feasting on Eldar Souls is more succulent than others.
The Eldar birthed Slaanesh because for so long they indulged themselves in the most extreme forms of excess.

74

You said nothing that contradicts my statement. I don’t state that custodes aren’t supa dupa mega cool warriors, they are, but they weren’t created for war and battlefields specifically, their role is policing and honor guard of emperor, and sometimes they are messengers of emperor that assist other military organisations in battles.

Physical differences between male and female comes in play for astartes because they are mass produced, custodes are handcrafted by emperor, they all had unique approach to them and each custodes serves unique purpose, so it’s not far fetched for them to have females, they are made not only as soldiers, but as i said something more and had unique approach to each one of them, what is it more and what kind of role they would’ve had in a future we don’t know because emps is a furniture now, but as i said they are experts in various forms of art and emperor passed some of his knowledge to them.

Thanks for trivia. so?

Everything is more interesting than your rants, but anyway it was about amonet’s irks regarding shadowlands answer to what creation in wow is.

Also also, last my favourite part: custodes is supposed to be ideal human, atleast how emperor visions them, why ideal humanity doesn’t include women in them? is emperor’s ideal humanity is gay?

75

Thrall was a filthy traitor.

76

Putting a chair

open popcorn satchet

77

He is just got tired and arranged pension for himself

78

No he left the Orcs in the worst spot possible. That is what happens when a human raised Orc that never been to Draenor starts leading a race of proud warriors who don’t have a word for peace.

79

If I may add something here… My Grandpa was quite religious.

Now, that alone doesn’t add to the conversation, so let me explain.

My Grandpa, a very devout christian and a teacher was quite “in line” with the old thinking of the church back in 50s. He also published one or two books he wrote himself. In fact, we have tons of books at my Grandparents house, the vast majority being christian books.

And in those books there are quite (by todays standard) controversial opinions expressed. Not just in the books my Grandpa wrote but also in publications of that time. Ranging from excessive homophobic topics up to even denouncing certain sexual-based topics that were quite normal for the 80s later on.

From the perspective of that time in the 50s, some things criticized in those books were (as most call it these days) “woke”. And later in the 80s it was just normal. Today even natural for many people.

What I’m trying to say is with this in context of WoW… Times change. Back then in 2004 it was in many european countries still normal to live by a way most of us call today “political incorrect”.

For example, up until 2017 in my country marriage between same-gender couples was illegal. And we are talking about Germany here, the 6th biggest european country. Not some small country somewhere in an unseen spot on the map.

Thing is, what once was considered normal back then is today not normal anymore by chance. Back then it was ok to hate on certain minorities, today not anymore.

And Blizzard, as a company trying to be “children friendly” and “going with the times” is just doing what social changes always did. Adjusting to the new norm.

I’m not defending Blizzard, by no means. I just want to mention that what many companies are currently doing with “defusing” certain aspects of their games history is both a political agenda, as same as it is just following the “Zeitgeist” (german for “Spirit of the current times”).

Edit: And in context of the Forsaken lore, this just means adjusting to “modern gaming trends” such as allowing players to play how they like. And not creating lore that restricts them at some point from doing something “new”.

80

Not having a word for peace is quite senseless for any nation no matter how militaristic they are, besides they do have a word for peace, draenor clans did have diplomatic relations and trade between each other.
Also they did trade between draenei before demons jumped in

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