Blame Blizzard for designing the dungeons that way and making it more efficient to only do parts of dungeons instead of the whole thing, not the players who are taking advantage of it.
As for the rest of your points, I usually find that there’s more to the story of “I got kicked/banned/punished just for existing/doing this little thing”. Especially when you claim it to be such a common occurance, maybe you have something to do with it too.
Pretty much this. Anybody who defends this guy, who claims that he gets unfairly kicked on regular basis and says the queues on normals are 20 mins (in reality its mostly like 5 even for dps, 10 mins in the worst dead hours), must be some kind of overly sensitive british white knight. I cant recall kicking anybody from normals no matter his performance. As long as he/she actually performs anything, he/she stays.
To be honest, you have nailed it in the top paragraph. It’s fully the fault of Blizzards design of the dungeon.
The most likely backstory for your second paragraph is down to the teams Impatience and need to rush through the dungeon using the skips, and unwillingness to help out a new or inexperienced player.
Whatever your opinion on the matter is, it’s down to dungeon design. If PF never have the skips in it, would you find people on the forums screaming “OMG put skips in Plaguefall Blizz!”, no because they would have known no better.
The problem Blizzard has created here is that by allowing the skips, its created an opportunity for less experienced/new players to easily fall behind and get lost. Hence putting out the rest of the team, who just V2K and carry on with a new player. I’ll admit, I am guilty of initiating the V2K for this reason in PF. Now if the skips weren’t there in the first place, it wouldn’t been so easy for players to fall behind, and the rest of the team wouldn’t be rushing to skip everything.
I think it is a player issue. Just be nice to new players, or someone who makes a mistake. I always voted “no” for those kicks. Mathematical you also lose out on XP doing the skips since you never win time for 1 extra dungeon in your session.
I mean, players should definitely be much kinda towards one and other. But once again it’s Blizzards responsibility to create a more friendly community, rather than the toxic one it currently has. It can ban as many players as it likes, but the design of the game, the competitive nature and commercialisation of Boosting is what has created this toxicity.
I remember the days, when you could LFG Stockades and some Lvl 60 mage who had nothing to do would just run you through a few times for fun. End of Vanilla, guilds were pretty much inviting anyone along to their raids, so people could see the content before TBC was released… I remember end of BFA “Last chance Jaina mount!”.
Players used to help each other.
But these things happen all the time in guilds and communities. We have run this week 3 evenings/afternoon where we just runned some casual M+ of all levels in failtrain-community to help out and have fun.
This an entirely different issue that comes up regularly even in places where a skip can’t be done.
As an example, I was getting my brother into playing the game a bit more since he hasn’t done anything more than normal dungeons in the years he’s been playing. He chose to play a tank a when we first set foot in Necrotic Wake, I tried to guide him at a somewhat decent pace, but slow enough for him to keep up. The group kept pulling stuff for him, even packs we never had to pull in the first place, which at one point killed me as the hunter in the group pulled so much that my brother couldn’t keep up and didn’t even know I had healer aggro and I died. That was a normal dungeon, no skips done, and the group kept pulling for him and berating him for being too slow.
That’s just player mentality. Once players get to know the dungeons and start doing them on alts, they assume everyone else in the group has already done it before as well and expect them to breeze through at a pace a new player simply can’t keep up with, regardless of dungeon design.
Sure in guild that happens.
But I’m talking about a new player doing it in LFG Chat.
When I first reach stockade level on my first Character, a friendly mage called ChuckNorris ran me (and 4 others I found in 4.Lookingforgroup) through Stockades 4 times, and asked for nothing in return… and we never saw or heard from him again.
Does it matter? I know nobody in that community either of the players we did dungeons with. And we got nothing in return for it too.
But is it really a good idea to encourage a new player to play such a demanding role as tank? Give him a chance to learn the game before putting him in charge of the party.
I told him it’s not going to be easy. Of course I warned him. I offered to tank at first so he can learn the dungeon mechanics, he refused and wants to tank. It mostly results in disasters but I won’t make him play something he doesn’t want to play.
I’m not suggesting in anyway that it is not a noble act to be doing! But I do that is also part of being in a guild (and yes I know there are guilds who don’t do that).
I’m just pointing out that it used to be common place outside of being in the guild.
It is not with my guild. It is in a community with thousands of players.
The thing is, what you are describing is a player created problem. Your brother tried jumping into the deep end when he couldn’t swim. It’s not down to poor game design here. He took on a demanding role, and didn’t know what he was doing.
I’m mean definitely, other players should be more empathetic and helpful… but they don’t have to be.
The situation above is where Blizzard have designed a dungeon which allows less experienced players to fall behind and get lost. Blizzard can control this by disallowing the skips. I guarantee, that if they put blockades in place to stop the skipping 99% of the “I got kicking in Plague Fall” threads will disappear. Removing the skips won’t hurt anyone. It might just make the levelling experience a few minutes longer.
I’m not against V2King someone for a fair reason. What I don’t like is a dungeon designed which allows inexperienced players to fall that far behind through no fault of their own, which results in a V2K and a bitter taste in their mouth.
Did you read what I wrote? It was a normal dungeon. The problem wasn’t that he couldn’t handle tanking a normal dungeon. An ape could do that at this point. Plus it was his first time ever being in that dungeon. The problem was that the group expected him to go as fast as an experienced tank player who knows the dungeon would go, in a god damned normal dungeon at level 54. They weren’t asking to skip anything, they just kept pulling for him, even things that didn’t need to be pulled. They were pulling ranged/caster mobs that even an experienced tank would have trouble get threat on because they were casting all over the place.
What you’re basically saying is that every single new player should start off as DPS and learn everything there is to learn about the game and every dungeon before even attemping tanking. No matter how demanding tanking is in more end-game content, this was a leveling dungeon intended for casual players.
Yes, I did read what you said.
Welcome to the world of Pug tanking. It happens. Other players will just pull and pull and pull. If they don’t stop when asked, just leave the group. I’ve done it.
I’m not saying everyone should start as DPS, but from what you’re saying he was well out of his Depth in this situation. If you’re not happy with the other players, just leave.
Do it or deal with rage and consequences of try to play a tank with 0 experience on game.
How on earth do you come to the conclusion that a player was out of his depth in a normal difficulty leveling dungeon?
We deal with it, I told him it would happen, we know it will happen. That doesn’t make it justified and the whole point of me talking about this was to prove that it’s an issue completely separate from dungeon design and that it’s a player mentality issue that very little can be done about. People will generally want to go fast in a content they’ve done several times before. My brother was going at a perfectly normal pace, he just wasn’t trying to speedrun, they were. He was doing what any player would do being in a particular dungeon for the first time. Have you ever played at the start of an expansion?
I’m sorry, but coming to the conclusion that a player is “way out of his depth” in the most casual version of dungeons while leveling is stupid. I’m not complaining about the things that are happening, I’m complaining about your franky stupid reasoning.
Because that’s what you said:
In fact, I already quoted you on it.
That doesn’t mean he was struggling to tank a normal dungeon, for crying out loud what’s going in your heads? You must be leaping over canyons to jump to these conclusion.
This quote means that it’s just going to be more difficult to learn as tank than it would be as DPS, and is very obviously not aimed at normal and to a large extent heroic dungeons, because mechanics literally barely do anything unless you pull half the dungeon and get hit by everything. It results in disasters at first, because that will happen when a player is doing a particular dungeon for the first time and happens to be tanking, which happens to everyone at the start of an expansion. He just happened to start later into it.
And while we’re at quoting
But now somehow an inexperienced player being guided in real-time by an experienced player, going at perfectly normal pace, is suddenly way out of his depth? This wasn’t even an issue of dungeon design yet for some reason you’re trying your best to justify it and saying “git gud before enjoying the game at an absolutely normal pace”.