(Long read!) How I personally would fix the problems with Mythic+

This has been a topic for quite some while now on the forums. People see (sometimes rightfully, sometimes not) problems with the activity. Those can range from dungeon balancing, leavers, the bad drop chances, etc.

I want in this post to make a long, (for the most part) thought through collection of ideas and suggestions for the Problems most see with Mythic+. So be aware of the reading time!

Let me first start by summarizing the problems various groups of players see with the activity.


The Problems with M+

  • Toxic Player Behavior
  • The Timer
  • Leavers & Key Degrading
  • Mythic Rating Rewards & Title(s)
  • Gear Drops

Now that this list stands, I will for each bullet point first summarize the problem, analyze the situation from a design perspective (as good as I can, won’t be perfect!) and then offer one or several solutions with a feel details.

Be aware, some suggestions I make could have been already suggested in the past.

Let us start with the toxic behavior some (not all!) players might bring into Mythic+


Toxic Player Behavior

As it currently stands, this is a community-side issue that (partially) is fueled by the way how the overall Mythic+ experience is designed. First of all, with the Timer the activity itself already brings a natural level of stress and pressure, completely aside of the dungeon design itself. Second to that, dying and losing seconds of said timer increases the pressure even more, because you are punished for your failures as a player/team for the entire run. Aside of that, additional factors can make the tensions between players even higher such as players getting the gear drop someone else wants but they either can’t or don’t want to trade it at the end of the run.

So in conclusion this means in a very badly going run the atmosphere and tension between the players is set up to become volatile and toxic from both visual and conversation and especially gameplay pressure.

You constantly see the timer ticking. You see how often your group has died. You can even see how much time you wasted due to deaths by hovering over the gravestone (in default UI). All of that, alongside the individual problems between players (f.e. “why the :face_with_symbols_over_mouth: did you not kick spell XY, [playername]!?!”) and so on.

And a lack of good or fair rewards for the (bad) time investment can make it even worse.

Now, in regards to solutions there are only a very few practical ways to solve this. The most chosen by most gaming studios is of course is simply punishing toxic behavior that is reported by players.

But I think that is the wrong approach. I rather think instead it is much better to design the content not in a toxic-fueling way in the first place. Since this proposed solution requires further explanation, I ask you to keep reading, because the solution for getting rid of toxicity (for the most part) persists of the further below mentioned solutions for the other points. As I said, from my perspective the best solution against toxicity is to design the content in a way that doesn’t let toxicity blossom in the first place.


The Timer

Since the Timer is integral for Mythic+ and its design, it is both part of the problem source and its solution for the overall point of getting rid of toxicity. Let me explain.

The Timer (as it is right now ingame) is designed to count down. So the more seconds pass, the more the player feels under pressure to finish the dungeon within the set time limit. As result (as mentioned above) the pressure on the dungeon team increases with every second passing.

That is not really a fun design for group content where a majority of mistakes can be both made by individuals and team and in general mostly affect the entire team.

A death takes away 5 seconds from the clock. Based on class it can have even more disastrous results. A DD dying is compensate-able for the most part, but a Healer or Tank dying can (and potentially will) result in a full team-wipe for the most groups. Especially on higher key levels this will be amplified as a result since enemies take more hits and deal more damage the higher the key is due to scaling.

So the problem is the timer, right? “But how it is also part of the solution?” you might ask… For the solution I have to reach out a bit.

Let me make an example from my main game Destiny 2.

We have a similar activity like Mythic+ (but much more simpified). That activity is called “Nightfalls”. In both activities there are scores and timers. In Mythic+ there is the timer that defines how much rating you get based on your performance and speed to complete the dungeon. In Destiny 2 the Nightfalls have a timer that is relevant for weekly reward structure (that is given once in a week per character). Rewards aside here, there is an interesting difference.

Mythic+ timer counts down. But Destiny 2 Nightfall timer counts up.

So, how can we use this to our advantage to solve the timer pressure problem?

You see, a timer that counts down has an end result. A “dead line” if you want so. If it starts by 45:00 minutes and ends at 00:00 that puts a mental “end barrier” on your mind.

But a timer that counts up doesn’t have a mental “end barrier” that is forced onto your mind. A timer that starts from 00:00 and can go infinitely upwards feels only like a time measurement. Less like a contest. But yet can still be applied for a contest.

Let us look as example at Dragonriding Races. The timers there count upwards, getting gold/silver/bronze placements is not a “forced” goal but an optional one. It is just something that happens to be part of your performance rating and if you care for the numbers you can optionally go for it.

So if we would apply this mentality to Mythic+, it can fundamentally change how you perceive the game activity, without making the rating and challenge obsolete.

Edit: Per death of course, invert-added, you get 5s more on the upcounting timer.

Let me visualize this for you with a simple chart.

Mythic+ timer counting down (Numbers Placeholder!)

Countdown checkpoints VS. rating received

45:00 = 300R
40:00 = 270R
35:00 = 240R
30:00 = 210R
25:00 = 180R
20:00 = 150R
15:00 = 120R
10:00 = 90R
05:00 = 60R
00:00 = 30 or 0R

Mythic+ timer counting up (Numbers Placeholder!)

Timer checkpoints VS. rating received

05:00 = 300R
10:00 = 270R
15:00 = 240R
20:00 = 210R
25:00 = 180R
30:00 = 150R
35:00 = 120R
40:00 = 90R
45:00 = 60R
50:00 = 30 or 0R

Conlusion

Now, as you can see, the timer counting down as it is right now vs. the timer counting up can make a perceptual difference. As I said, those numbers are only for showcasing. It is obvious of course that no group finishes a dungeon in 5 minutes. But you get the idea.

A count down makes a player feel that when the time is over something bad is happening, which can as result create the feeling of failure. But a timer that counts up gives a player the feeling that being as fast as possible is something that rewards them.

When you look at time trial racing games (or Dragonriding) you can see this healthy perspective of up-counting timers. When you are faster each time you can see the progress and actually feel like you are improving (especially if there is a highscore board!) while with a countdown you can feel very much like being pressured to complete something in time before a heavy penalty hits.

And speaking of penalties, let us head over to the next point on the list…


Leavers & Key Degrading

The problem with leavers is also a big issue, one that is much more impacting and punishing than any other problem in Mythic+

Because a leaver, will for 100% brick your key level if that person leaves during the run. And that is the core problem. You are punished for other peoples flaws. That’s a factor you, as group leader, have little to no control over. You can’t change how people behave from your side of the screen aside of perhaps using words. Your only reliable option is to track people via websites and categorize them if they are reliable group members or not. And for most that is too much effort to put into making sure you don’t have a potential leader in the group, because such checking stats and so on eats time.

Time you could spend playing instead. So let’s fix that.

My suggestion here is simple. Give Keys “Condition Charges”. A key has up to 3 of them. Each time a key run is canceled/reset a “Condition Charge” is consumed. Basically this means you can start over your key run up to 3 times before the key degrades to the lower level.

You also may ask why I specifically picked the number 3 for the charges. To quote famous Monty Python here:

Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less.

3 is the most fair and most iconic number for this. There is for a reason the saying “All good things come in threes”.

Now I am aware that implementing such a thing can devalue the challenge a bit for some players because they can simply start over. But consider that this devaluing would be on a rather minimal level compared to making the problems of leavers in your keys much more forgiving for both yourself and the leaver.

A leaver does not always leave the run because they want to. Sometimes there are real life issues that matter more than this game. Such things could be your own child getting hurt while playing and you have to treat their injury. Or it could be that you almost forgot to take your dog to the vet. Or as simple as heading to your local super market to buy food or something. You get the point.

Giving the keys charges will make everyones life easier and the activity much more fun and enjoyable for all. Because you don’t have to fear an immediate failure and degrading of your key because of 1 bad run.

Next point ahead!


Mythic Rating Rewards & Title(s)

This point is not really an issue, but rather an additional idea. Since M+ features only a title on reaching 1500 rating, it might be an interesting idea to add further title brackets to higher key levels to give incentive to players to push further the better they get.

Right now as it stands we have “The Smoldering” title for reaching the 1500 mark.

But what if there would be another one for 2500 rating too? To make up a title name fitting the first one… What about “The Blazing”?

Just a thought.

Another point is the Dungeon Teleports being tied to reaching a 20+ on every dungeon. Personally I think that barrier could be lowered to 15+ for each dungeon so players feel earlier rewarded for investing time in Mythic+ and giving even more feeling of accomplishment in-between the bracket of 10+ and 20+.


Gear Drops

Now for the probably most controversial part I want to speak about…

Over the last few seasons (and especially last season) I have read complaints of having issues getting the desired rewards from other players and I experienced that myself strongly in Season 1 of Dragonflight.

In my personal case, last season I was trying to get the Mote of Sanctification from Halls of Valor. It took me 3/4 of the season to get it and in the end I got it because I was very lucky with my weekly vault.

For an average player the time investment of 35 Minutes per run is a lot of time. You can spend an entire day running the same dungeon and end up with items you don’t even want and couldn’t trade away. And since the entire system is RNG-depending, it can be very unfair to one side of the spectrum having no luck and/or the other to not being able to trade away.

So, my solution would be to suggest a “focusing”-system of some sorts via a Vendor.

Before I continue with that idea, I want to bring up an image:

https://www.buffed.de/screenshots/medium/2022/09/WoW-Bedarf-vor-Gier-Beute-Loot-pluendern-Wuerfeln-1-buffed_b2article_artwork.jpg

You surely all know this window above, right? See, back in Legion content, you could buy tokens for Bonus rolls in Raids and Invasion Points. I have a similar idea for Mythic+. Let me explain.

What would be from my perspective a good solution is adding a loot vendor at the end of the key completion and a currency with limitations.

To put it simply:

  1. You complete the dungeon and the Loot Vendor appears
  2. You loot the chest and potentially get a token-currency (saved in the currency bags).
    This currency replaces the actual gear drop you would get.
  3. You then get the roll window. You have then 2 options:
    A.) Roll for a piece of loot with the token and get a random piece of loot from the loot table (that can still be traded with instance players for 1-2 hours from the same key)
    B.) Keep the token and with enough of them (like 5-7 or so) you can directly buy the item you want from the dungeon lootpool at the Loot Vendor. That item will be soulbound on pickup.

Having such a system may sound confusing and annoying at first but think about it. You can take your chances and roll for a randomly chosen item drop and trade it if you don’t need it or you can keep your token and work towards the slot you actually need over time and effort.

It is basically a win-win situation. BUT there is a big hitch still that needs to be addressed.

The tokens can’t be universal for dungeon and level. They need to be Dungeon-specific, otherwise people would only spam the easiest dungeon and then do 1 single run of the dungeon they want the loot from. Also the item purchased needs to be linked to the level of the key. So if you want to buy for instance a 431 item level drop, you actually have to complete a +20 key run and buy it within the very same run instance.

Also the currencies should reset every season obviously due to the changing Dungeon rotation we have at the moment and to keep players playing the activity.

So that means in summary you would have to actually play the respective dungeons of the current season, like as usual. You just have a bit more control over the items you get with a bit of extra effort.

For archive purposes I’ll add the dungeon list of season (Dragonflight Season 2):

  • Brackenhide Hollow (Dragonflight)

  • Halls of Infusion (Dragonflight)

  • Uldaman, Legacy of Tyr (Dragonflight)

  • Neltharus (Dragonflight)

  • Freehold (Battle for Azeroth)

  • The Underrot (Battle for Azeroth)

  • Neltharion’s Lair (Legion)

  • Vortex Pinnacle (Cataclysm)


Now, if you have stuck so long with me reading all of this text above I want to remind you that those are merely detailed suggestions from my side. I don’t want to give the impression that my suggestions are the “way to go”. Only what I can think of to make the game more fun and engaging for all.

If you have different ideas and thoughts, feel free to share them below. That being said, I will take now a break from typing and eat something. Thank you for your patience and attention, dear readers. Have a nice day :slight_smile:

Bruh.

And then when pointed out your rotation is gonna get screwed either way if you don’t dispel the afflicted:

I can completely understand why you get leavers in your keys at a far higher rate than I see in the keys I do. Dispel is 1 GCD, 8 sec CD. You would instead divine shield, which is also 1 GCD AND has several minutes cooldown, which means you don’t have it for something else, it also hits the group even if you personally don’t get hit by it when you’re shielded.

You completely dodged reading the topic and went straight for making assumptions with comments from a different thread irrelevant to this one.

No further comment to you.

1 Like

No assumptions made, you plainly stated this, in no uncertain terms. You’re whining about leavers in m+, you’re getting leavers at a far higher rate than I and many others do, because you’re playing bad.

3 Likes

After years of a toxic PuG scene (not caused by M+ but exacerbated by it) where those commenting on it were met with responses such as:
“That’s not toxic”
“You need thicker skin”
“Grow a pair”
“L2P”
“Git Gud”

I don’t think M+ is compatible with PuGing any longer as so many moderate players have either joined casual guilds or communities or given up entirely on grouped content.

A new format of dungeoneering is required for random grouping (PuGs). Maybe call it Heroic+.

It should have features such as:
Random Match Maker queue.
Everyone shares the consquences, rewards and penalties.
Either no tank or healer is required or these must be encouraged in.
Rewards need to be balanced in regard to Time and Effort compared to M+.

Leave M+ for those with stable groups to continue with.

1 Like

That’s actually a nice “outside the box thinking” idea.

We had a similar activity in Destiny 1 back in the days. Strikes (the equivalent to dungeons in that MO-RPG Shooter) with additional modifiers but matchmaking. Played it every day.

Perhaps this new Heroic+ would focus more on personal responsibility. The mechanics would hit individual players with stuns, debuffs or similar but could be interupted. So players would be incentivised to interupt attacks aimed at them personally.

So H+ would be more about individuals performing well (whilst with a group) whereas M+ be more group performance.

I think it should do both. Affect you and your team, similar like M+, but in a way that teaches players to actively play the mechanics so it becomes a training ground for the people to later then jump into M+ when they are ready.

cba to read without decent tldr

my assumtion is you give some permutation of topics that have been already discussed to death because you cba to find a decent guild or stable m+ team to play with - so anything what you suggest is more of the same nonsense that have been spoken to death milion times.

I see this new format as an alternative to M+ rather than a preparation for it.
For players who don’t want to join a guild / community to be able to still partake in a form of dungeoneering that is rewarding and engaging but with PuGing in mind.

2 Likes

Problem is solved in 10.1.5 weekly vault is back. You will not see Bad players in higher keys after that

you cant bame him though . nobody sane will waste time readiing this wall of text without tldr.

In my personal opinion, this is a big “:poop:-take” as people say these days. It’s basically the same as people saying “you played a game for 30 minutes and are already judging it”. How can you think that you can judge something objectively if you didn’t bother even investing time into understanding it?

Same applies to the post. If you didn’t read it then you can’t judge it objectively. Because you didn’t invest the time to read and understand what the others say.

As a comparison to you, that’s like when you hear a single sentence from a conversation in a different room without any context and you decide to go into that room, give your own thoughts without know what the conversation is about and then leaving with the illusion you know what you are talking about.

If you need a tl:dr for long topics like this it may be better to not read and comment at all for you and Elahri (he btw. merely try to hate on me for fun). I literally have as a title:

How I personally would fix the problems with Mythic+ (long read!)

If you can already read that in the title, why would either of you even bother to open it if you don’t want to read a long topic (as announced in advance by the title)?

ye i can . if you cannot formulate your ideas in like 100-200 words only feel the need to make huge wall of text it means you have nothing interesting to say .

its typical for students who didnt prepare well for exams - they try to “spill the water” because they dont really know any answers.

boho - m= are toxic because people leave your groups because you clearly cannot play on their level . play it 2-3 diffculties lower then and people wont leave.

That’s a huge bias you have right there. I am sure you would say the exact same when reading a doctoral thesis, which are btw. (depending on topic) 150-200 pages long. At least that is what your statement implies.

And guess what? Every book has more pages than my topic body altogether. If I put that into Microsoft Word it is merely 4 pages long with all the spaces in-between for formatting on the forum here.

I really don’t think you have a logical standing point for that behavior other than “I feel like doing so”.

would you do higher keys if all this was implemented or stick to low ones where none of this matters anyway?

Yes, I absolutely would play on higher levels. Simply alone because of the more player friendly key degrading with having 3 chances before the key lowers.

Instead of having 1 public group not working well together I can have 2-3 before a key degrades, increasing the chances to find the right people to complete it without someone leaving. Also it would allow players to disband in worst case scenario without making the key owner take a hit on their key (unless they are already on 1 charge).

All my suggestions do is making mythic+ across the board more casual friendly for some while keeping the affix/combat challenge.

if you ever written even a bachelor thesis you would know that any of those starts with summary/introduction of thesis or how its called before you start your first chapter :slight_smile: and there is a good reason for it :0

they are casual friendly though .

keys like 2-5 are extremly casual friendly very few things can go wrong in those

if you want to push higher ? get better rewards ? ye you gotta git gud bro :slight_smile:

i dedicate this for you :slight_smile:

2 Likes

They all sound like pretty reasonable solutions to me, although I would still enhance some of them I think.

I do belong to that group of players who have given up though. I’ve played m+ in the past but even if I did reach a good level (not too high, but not too low either) I’ve asked myself if it was worth it and the answer was simply a big “no”. At the end of the day, I was more stressed and angry then I was before I was doing m+, the only feeling when I got gear and done my m+ was “thank God this is finally over”. And since I was rather slow, this would happen near the end of the season, so all my progress would be erased in a month or 2.

Decided it was not worth my time. Now I only play casual content and focus on world stuff, my time is way more valuable than running this endless treadmill. Having more control would surely improve it, but I do also think it’s time for a new overall architecture, although I don’t feel like giving any advice as I really can’t tell what’s best for the majority of players.

1 Like