Long Topic

[Ishayoe-frostmane (Ishayoe)]

@Uruk-argent-dawn

If you’re passive aggressive toward me, why should I be any different to you?

Because you promised to stop?

And you got them because it was glaringly obvious that you were deliberately misunderstanding my posts in order to score internet points.

It all started when I said I wanted more moments like those I had in vanilla and had several times since, and then you said “Just play vanilla”. I know you knew full well that you were just telling me to get lost, and that’s why I got annoyed.

In other words: You started it. Now you’ve promised to stop it. So stop it.

@Uruk-argent-dawn

Ok, but you dint have to remove flying in order to create a better gameplay experience that’s will make people more social. That’s another issue completely. Blame it on the fact that nothing outside of M+, rated PvP and raids requires any sort of social interactions.

No, it’s not another issue completely. The social interaction that emerges from the gameplay loops of an MMORPG is why MMORPG’s are made in the first place. They are intrinsically linked.

@Uruk-argent-dawn

If people don’t want to interact with one another, flying won’t change that. I’ve had almost zero interactions even before flying was implemented in 8.2. Why? Because I had no reason to.

And again, if you accommodate the terrain and the 3D space to support flying and not work independently of it, then this problem could be solved.

You should have reasons to. That’s the core promise of WoW. That’s why WoW was made. WoW isn’t doing a terribly good job at that at the moment, but it can do it when it tries a little bit.

And the lead devs like Ion know this, by the way. There was an interview with Ion by Sloot recently where Sloot was talking pure class gameplay the whole way through, and then he asked Ion if he had anything else he wanted to say, and Ion went straight for the social interaction problems instantly.

So I’m honestly quite excited for Shadowlands. That sentence made me buy it - I actually hadn’t pre-ordered it beforehand for the first time in the history of the game, because no way am I putting up with a gameplay loop like that in BfA again.

@Uruk-argent-dawn

I doubt it’s that hard with their current tech and resources. It’d actually give the game some fresh new possibilities, instead of everything just being same old stuff from previous expansions but with new coat of paint over it.

Well, what you have to do to make it work is to make the terrain much bigger. So now we’ve got massive verticality and a massive terrain. Now it’s even more impossible for players to meet one another. You can see it working quite well in a game like Just Cause. But that’s a single player game.

It is genuinely my opinion that flying and MMORPG’s just don’t mix. No other MMORPG than WoW that I’m aware of has flying, because it just doesn’t work. Gliders and flight masters do, though.

[Psjohly-argent-dawn (Psjohly)]

I really like flying. The world is way more beautiful from the sky often. Since i have flying i go do stuff in the world way more than before.

And about convenience;
Unfortunately some area’s are just created for guarenteed pain while running on a ground-mount

[Uruk-argent-dawn (Uruk)]

@Uruk-argent-dawn

Because you promised to stop?

And you got them because it was glaringly obvious that you were deliberately misunderstanding my posts in order to score internet points.

It all started when I said I wanted more moments like those I had in vanilla and had several times since, and then you said “Just play vanilla”. I know you knew full well that you were just telling me to get lost, and that’s why I got annoyed.

In other words: You started it. Now you’ve promised to stop it. So stop it.

I actually didn’t say that to tell you to get lost. I said that because it sounded as if Classic would be a far more enjoyable experience for you, seeing as flying isn’t likely to be removed anytime soon, if ever. I had no intention of sounding like a jerk or being rude. Your fault for interpreting it that way, sorry.

And I couldn’t give less of a crap about internet points. I’m not that shallow.

And lastly, I haven’t promised anything. I said I’d humour you with a serious answer, and that’s exactly what I did. I could simply have stopped wasting my time in replying to you and not have went through an effort of giving constructive replies to your points at all, yet I did.

@Ishayoe-frostmane

No, it’s not another issue completely. The social interaction that emerges from the gameplay loops of an MMORPG is why MMORPG’s are made in the first place. They are intrinsically linked.

And I don’t think that flying is even close to being the main issue. The main issue is that everything is braindead easy and requires no social interactions whatsoever. I can’t recall a single quest or WQ aside from the world boss quests where I ever needed help from other people. And for the things I do need social interactions for, I can just use a premade finder and group up with random people I will never see again.

@Ishayoe-frostmane

And the lead devs like Ion know this, by the way. There was an interview with Ion by Sloot recently where Sloot was talking pure class gameplay the whole way through, and then he asked Ion if he had anything else he wanted to say, and Ion went straight for the social interaction problems instantly.

Seeing is believing. They made promises and ambitious speeches before, and most of them never got realized. I’ll remain skeptical about the Shadowlands until I actually see it in action.

@Ishayoe-frostmane

It is genuinely my opinion that flying and MMORPG’s just don’t mix. No other MMORPG than WoW that I’m aware of has flying, because it just doesn’t work. Gliders and flight masters do, though.

And yet flying is one of the only things that’s make WoW stand out. Other few things being well-designed raids. Other than that, it doesn’t stand out in anything compared to other MMOs.

[Emje-draenor]

@Ishayoe-frostmane

It is genuinely my opinion that flying and MMORPG’s just don’t mix. No other MMORPG than WoW that I’m aware of has flying, because it just doesn’t work. Gliders and flight masters do, though.

And this is why discussions get heated because there is a divide. I respect that this is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but others are also entitled to their opinion and it is no less valid than yours.

@Ishayoe-frostmane

And then comes that ridiculous compromise where we can’t fly while the content is what entices us (so travelling is annoying) but can fly while the emergent gameplay is all that’s left, leaving nobody happy.

You ask that people take your arguments seriously yet you belittle other opinions. The compromise is ridiculous to you, others may find it acceptable.

Flying did not kill the social aspect of WoW, look back to WoD and garrisons, I rarely used my flying mount then because I had little reason to leave my garrison. LFG tools means I don’t really have to fly anywhere I just click and queue. I am not saying we should lose such tools, we have them in game and the majority of people love the convenience they offer. The game has evolved, flying has been part of the game for a very long time and for a lot of players, myself included, we love it although I also appreciate there is also players that don’t want it.

So exactly where is the compromise that will keep both sides happy?

[Ceranity-terenas]

@Psjohly-argent-dawn

And about convenience;
Unfortunately some area’s are just created for guarenteed pain while running on a ground-mount

I think that the repetitive nature of a lot of open world content (e.g. dailies, WQs) mean that the convenience of flying is really appreciated because it’s not fun or exploratory to go the same less convenient land routes to do the same quests in the same places over and over again just to grind rep. It’s certainly a lot easier and quicker to get the daily chores out of the way with flying.

@Ishayoe-frostmane

Now it’s even more impossible for players to meet one another.

I don’t mean this as passive-aggressive or rude in any way, I am genuinely curious: do you consider walking/riding past people in the world a form of social interaction? Personally as someone who pays very little attention to my surroundings and other people in the street irl, I can’t say that passing by people and not interacting with them in any way makes the game feel more social or alive. I do interact with people when I get to a WQ (e.g. popping a priest buff on them while waiting for the mob to respawn), but the process of getting there by land or air doesn’t feel social in any way. To me, flying makes no difference in this regard but I’d love to hear another perspective.

I’m a big fan of flying because I appreciate the convenience, I love the look of the landscape from the air (there’s a place in Stormsong where the morning light breaking over the hills is just magical!) and I’m not a fan of jumping puzzles or trying to get somewhere just for the sake of it. Again, I understand that’s all entirely personal preference.

[Punyelf-draenor (Punyelf)]

It seems to be hard for some grounders to comprehend that flying is not some mode of convenience. That removing flying is no different to remove all ground mounts. I think it’s a shame that some are stuck in this mindset that simply can’t see others’ points of view.

Flying is immersive, you are in full control of where you go and what you see, you aren’t afk on a flight path because you are travelling somewhere. It’s a strange closed mindedness that wont accept that exploration happens in the sky as well as on the ground. That actually being in control of your character in the skies exactly the same as being in control of your character on foot or on ground mount, it’s the same immersion.

All these gimmicks on limiting flying just make it worse for the people who like flying. We had limitations like that in WoD before flying was available with things like Aviana’s toy and the engineering building giving you a temporary flying. But you couldn’t properly explore on either. Making flying limited to some areas or zones is the same as removing flying, as is limiting it to some profession.

I do not understand this desire to take away flying from others. At least Blizzard have a fair approach with the Pathfinder system. I may hate the time I’m grounded but I know that eventually I will get to soar. My enjoyment of the game improves tenfold when flying is enabled.

I did prefer the buy flying at max level method but those days are gone. It is odd to level alts with flying once Pathfinder has been released but it does make the process faster. It’s not like we get flying early on and it’s only very late alts that get to benefit.

[Drae-hellscream (Drae)]

@Ceranity-terenas

I think that the repetitive nature of a lot of open world content (e.g. dailies, WQs) mean that the convenience of flying is really appreciated because it’s not fun or exploratory to go the same less convenient land routes to do the same quests in the same places over and over again just to grind rep. It’s certainly a lot easier and quicker to get the daily chores out of the way with flying.

Argus is terrible even if you aren’t repeating the content, and just going through it once for the story/quests. I guess those zones are a paradise for the flat-earthers non-fliers though, they get all the “fun” of navigating bad terrain, pulling badly placed trash and having social interactions in a world that feels alive.

[Ishayoe-frostmane (Ishayoe)]

@Uruk-argent-dawn

I actually didn’t say that to tell you to get lost. I said that because it sounded as if Classic would be a far more enjoyable experience for you, seeing as flying isn’t likely to be removed anytime soon, if ever. I had no intention of sounding like a jerk or being rude. Your fault for interpreting it that way, sorry.

Oh come on. I’m not buying that for a second. Stop insulting my intelligence.

And you don’t think there’s an implicit promise when you decide to attempt turning the conversation into a constructive one? Did you do it just because you wanted to make me appear a fool (i.e. score internet points) or did you do it because you actually wanted a constructive dialogue with no more insults?

The world may never know.

@Uruk-argent-dawn

And I don’t think that flying is even close to being the main issue. The main issue is that everything is braindead easy and requires no social interactions whatsoever. I can’t recall a single quest or WQ aside from the world boss quests where I ever needed help from other people. And for the things I do need social interactions for, I can just use a premade finder and group up with random people I will never see again.

But it is a huge part of the issue. It cannot and should not be ignored.

@Uruk-argent-dawn

Seeing is believing. They made promises and ambitious speeches before, and most of them never got realized. I’ll remain skeptical about the Shadowlands until I actually see it in action.

That’s fair. But they’ve done quite the 180 here. They’ve gone straight from “Let’s put in more UI panels to make communities” straight to “how can we look at Classic for inspiration to make this work” - and meanwhile I’m sitting on Twitch talking to Kevin Jordan, one of WoW vanilla’s game designers, and we knew exactly what he was getting at when he said that. I think he gets it now. Didn’t last time, but now he does.

@Uruk-argent-dawn

And yet flying is one of the only things that’s make WoW stand out. Other few things being well-designed raids. Other than that, it doesn’t stand out in anything compared to other MMOs.

I don’t think that’s true, but it is definitely far and away the best when it comes to raids.

@Emje-draenor

Flying did not kill the social aspect of WoW, look back to WoD and garrisons, I rarely used my flying mount then because I had little reason to leave my garrison.

I’ve been through this argument. The garrison undid everything that removing flying helped achieve. So yeah. Exactly.

@Emje-draenor

So exactly where is the compromise that will keep both sides happy?

There isn’t one. This isn’t politics, this is game design.

@Ceranity-terenas

I don’t mean this as passive-aggressive or rude in any way

Not to worry, you don’t at all.

@Ceranity-terenas

do you consider walking/riding past people in the world a form of social interaction? Personally as someone who pays very little attention to my surroundings and other people in the street irl, I can’t say that passing by people and not interacting with them in any way makes the game feel more social or alive. I do interact with people when I get to a WQ (e.g. popping a priest buff on them while waiting for the mob to respawn), but the process of getting there by land or air doesn’t feel social in any way. To me, flying makes no difference in this regard but I’d love to hear another perspective.

Yes. I’ve literally made friends in Classic because I buffed someone. That’s actually why they exist! I know it sounds crazy, but the buffs were put into the game for you to initiate interaction without speaking. No, I’m not making that up - I’ve asked.

I think something people are missing here is that the vanilla WoW devs are actually available and willing to talk about this stuff a lot of the time. You can just ask them - and I did.

[Punyelf-draenor (Punyelf)]

Argus improved sales on barding and stirrups, also made a lot of people do dailies in tank spec to avoid daze. I used to do my dailies with a druid friend because they couldn’t daze him in stag form and I just rode him like a mount.

[Drae-hellscream (Drae)]

@Punyelf-draenor

couldn’t daze him in stag form

Huh. I was unaware of this. Bit late to find out since I’m now self-sufficient with barding, but a useful tip I’ll be able to give others

[Punyelf-draenor (Punyelf)]

Everyone needs a druid friend!

[Emje-draenor]

@Ishayoe-frostmane

There isn’t one. This isn’t politics, this is game design.

And the current design includes flying. So does this make all arguments moot?

People argue for and against features in game all the time, does this make us all politicians? You were very dismissive of my question and did not give it a fair response at all so I will ask again, where is the compromise that will keep both sides happy?

[Drae-hellscream (Drae)]

@Emje-draenor

People argue for and against features in game all the time, does this make us all politicians?

Gee, I hope not. I don’t want to hate myself

[Ceranity-terenas]

@Ishayoe-frostmane

Yes. I’ve literally made friends in Classic because I buffed someone. That’s actually why they exist! I know it sounds crazy, but the buffs were put into the game for you to initiate interaction without speaking. No, I’m not making that up - I’ve asked.

I actually started buffing random people because I watched a “prepare for classic” video (can’t remember who by) where they mentioned this as something you should do to be social (although I didn’t actually get into playing classic myself). So I thought “why not just do this in retail?” and now I randomly buff everyone. It seems absurd to me that it never occurred to me to do that before! Sometimes it goes unnoticed, sometimes you get a thanks, sometimes a mage returns the buff. I enjoy these little interactions - but I’m not sure that flying or using ground mounts has any effect on this? I’d be unlikely to dismount to buff a passing player on land just as much as I’d be unlikely to do so in the air!

I imagine it’s a different case in Classic where you won’t be actually on a mount for a lot of the game so you don’t need to think of “time wasted” re-mounting? Are there any other ways (ideally which are mount friendly) which people use to randomly interact with each other in the world?

[Uruk-argent-dawn (Uruk)]

@Ishayoe-frostmane

Oh come on . I’m not buying that for a second. Stop insulting my intelligence.

If you don’t believe me, that’s your problem, not mine. I got better things to do than try to convince you.

@Ishayoe-frostmane

And you don’t think there’s an implicit promise when you decide to attempt turning the conversation into a constructive one? Did you do it just because you wanted to make me appear a fool (i.e. score internet points) or did you do it because you actually wanted a constructive dialogue with no more insults?

No, I don’t. That’s just in your head I’m afraid. I’ll stop when you do, not before. Deal with it.

@Ishayoe-frostmane

But it is a huge part of the issue. It cannot and should not be ignored.

And I disagree. I think I can be improved upon, not outright removed.

@Ishayoe-frostmane

That’s fair. But they’ve done quite the 180 here. They’ve gone straight from “Let’s put in more UI panels to make communities” straight to “how can we look at Classic for inspiration to make this work” - and meanwhile I’m sitting on Twitch talking to Kevin Jordan, one of WoW vanilla’s game designers, and we knew exactly what he was getting at when he said that. I think he gets it now. Didn’t last time, but now he does.

I think you’re just setting yourself up for a major disappointment, to be honest. I hope that won’t be the case, I want Shadowlands to be great too, but I’m not going to believe a word they say until they can back them up with something concrete.

@Ishayoe-frostmane

I don’t think that’s true

And that’s fine. You’re entitled to your opinion. However, from what I’ve seen and from the MMOs I’ve tried and watched, I think it is true. WoW’s endgame outside of instanced content is incredibly shallow and boring.

[Ishayoe-frostmane (Ishayoe)]

@Emje-draenor

And the current design includes flying. So does this make all arguments moot?

People argue for and against features in game all the time, does this make us all politicians? You were very dismissive of my question and did not give it a fair response at all so I will ask again, where is the compromise that will keep both sides happy?

There is no compromise that will keep both sides happy in the sense that they get what they say they want. It’s an honest answer, even if it doesn’t give you what you seek. I’m not dismissing you - I’m just not giving you what you want to hear.

Why the analogy to politics? Because politics is all about making compromises to keep various parts of the population happy by giving them what they ask for as well as you can. Game design isn’t like that. Nobody is forced to be in this world and put up with anything. We can and must design to make the game fun, and if we make compromises that we know won’t make anyone truly happy, then we’re not making decisions about the direction of the game and its design, we’re just trying to play politics so everybody is sortta happy but nobody is really having fun.

[Emje-draenor]

I understand what you’re saying but I still disagree. Game design to make the game fun I agree with but what is fun for one person may not be fun for another. I think Ceranity said earlier that they were not a fan of jumping puzzles, I on the other hand love them. So a game that is designed to give people the fun they want is always going to have aspects that some enjoy and others not and this leads me back to compromise. Whether you believe my view is a ‘politicians’ view or not does not change anything, in all games there has to be compromise to ensure the game will appeal to a wider audience. The for flying and against flying argument will always exist and for me personally I believe Pathfinder gives a little bit to both ergo a compromise.

[Twíjfelkont-khadgar (Twíjfelkont)]

@Gráinne-earthen-ring

I remember the joy of hitting 90 in the Dread Wastes in Mists, knowing I could instantly hearth back to Shrine and take to the skies. Happy days!

Ever since, in Warlords, in Legion, in BfA, my feeling on getting Pathfinder has just been relief , not joy: It’s over. Thank God, the ache is gone.

As usual, Gráinne has said exactly my own feelings on this.

I know I’ve posted this before years ago, but I’m going to post it again…

“I’m a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar” - Wash, Firefly

Flying honestly and actually improves my mood and makes me happy; to soar on one of my many favourite mounts to observe the often beautiful world that the Blizzard Art Department have created for us, that you cannot always appreciate whilst grounded. I hope they never remove it.

[Hínáta-kazzak (Hínáta)]

Well, this topic was quite an interesting read.

@OP

People climb mountains when they can get to the top with helicopters, people fast, people don’t eat cake to lose weight and do many other practices it’s called self-restraint as puny and others have pointed it out.

Instead of comparing resisting the urge to fly to resisting the urge of using your left hand, how about using an actual comparison that happens in our everyday life?

Resisting the urge to eat more of delicious food?
Resisting the urge to use cheat codes in games?
Resisting the urge to drive instead of walking?
Resisting the urge to use the elevator instead of the stairs?
Resisting the urge to cheat on an exam?

These are everyday examples that happen, because of self restraint.

If you enjoy walking to work you’ll do it even if you have a car, and plenty of people with cars do exactly that.

Humans aren’t as basic as not being able to resist any kind of urges they get, everyone hates studying, even A+ students but they do it for the reward/fun/whatever the goal is.

Also, you need to learn that people giving their opinions aren’t direct attacks, you can’t expect people to all agree with you, in fact people have been VERY patient with you and you should respect that.

I’ve thrown around some very controversial topics, yet I’m always met with respectful answers, because I respect other people’s opinions and don’t go on attacking them for disagreeing with me, perhaps you should sport the same attitude instead of feeling attacked because someone pointed out the flaws in your argument or your rudeness.

[Triadne-quelthalas (Triadne)]

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