Hey, nice video. I remember you from Feenix Warsong 
Must-watch for all classic paladins.
I disagree with Ironfoe being something you want to use with a Seal of Righteousness oriented tanking build.
Now while Seal of Righteousness will hit harder with an Ironfoe than with say something like a Flurry Axe, the damage of SoR is calculated based on your speed to give the same average increase in holy dps, and thus threat per second from swinging.
Now the thing with Seal of Righteousness is that its spell damage scaling is set to a flat 10% of spellpower. Every swing from the 1.5 speed Flurry Axe will get the same added holy damage as a 2.4 speed Ironfoe which means as your spellpower gets higher, the threat from the faster weapon will outpace the slower.
This means that any weapon speed will provide you with the same tps over the course of a fight.
The difference then becomes the weapons themselves. Flurry Axe has about a 2 PPM in Classic, with one additional attack.
Ironfoe has 0.8 PPM with two additional attacks. Both weapons have their procrate effectively doubled due to the way Seal of Righteousness can trigger weapon procs, and they are also able to proc on themselves.
Now because Ironfoe is 2.4 speed, the additional attacks hits harder which means they have a bigger impact when they do proc. The downside is the procrate is quite a lot lower than Flurry Axe which makes the weapon less reliable.
The reason I would not really recommend an Ironfoe is that your Judgement of Wisdom has a static procrate, and that the mana regenerated from JoW has its threat multiplied by Righteous Fury as well. This means Ironfoe will see a lot less Judgement of Wisdom procs, quite a lot less mana restored from swinging at the target, and in turn a lowered threat output from the restored mana which in a way nullifies the additional weapon attack on the Ironfoe proc over an extended period of time. Ironfoe also makes you less able to sustain your regular rotation in a raid, and it leads to more downtime in a dungeon.
The upside to Ironfoe is that getting a lucky proc on pull means you immediately establish solid threat on the target, and you are able to focus on something else. The downside is the proc is unreliable and may not occur when you need it, or occur at all.
Now I have personally owned both weapons. This was however on a private server so let me explain the difference.
Private servers had Ironfoe set to 1PPM, higher than Classic.
They also had Flurry Axe set to 1PPm, lower than Classic.
On top of this, Private server adjusted the spellpower scaling to 10% multiplied by weapon speed meaning Ironfoe had 24% spellpower scaling with Seal of Righteousness while its a flat 10% on Classic.
Even despite all these differences I still found Flurry Axe more reliable to use for tanking, with less downtime and more reliable steady threat. Ironfoe is great when it procs, but its threat is also come in bigger more unreliable chunks.
My recommendation is that you stick with Flurry Axe for Paladin tanking in Classic.
Slow Weapon provide more Holy DMG = More Threat.
In scenario when you have 0 Spell Damage or even 100 Spell Damage , 10 damage wont do enough threat compare to slow weapon speed SoR scaling.
Hence the scaling you talk about is for Spell Damage, not the Weapon Speed!
Ironfoe will provide you by default more Holy DMG to your SoR thanks to Weapon Speed (which you does not include in the comparison) and Holy DMG is what increase your threat much more than white swings DPS !
In order for you to do at least good threats with Flurry Axe thanks to Spell Damage, you need at least 100 SP in order to increase 10 Holy Damage/Swing which is 19 threat or let say 28.5 TPS.
On top of the lower TPS from Flurry Axe by lesser amount of Holy Damage, you also do much lesser Threat by it’s Physical attacks and you do scale much lower by Attack Power thanks to faster Weapon Speed.
Ironfoe does more Threat by both = Physical Damage (White Swings) thanks to One-Handed Weapon Spec and Holy Damage (Slow Weap Speed default SoR scaling “Not talking about SP coefficient,but the default Min/Max SoR damage”).
Flurry Axe is best Weapon for AoE , where you can Seal and Judge of Wisdom on strongest target and then spam Max Rank Consecration.
Ironfoe is best Weapon for Single Target (usually boss fight) where you judge of wisdom , seal of righteousness and have those procs doing lots of threat for you!
Flurry Axe will provide you 24 Base Improved SoR (talent) damage + 3 from One-Handed Weap spec = 27 SoR Damage + 10 (from 100 Spell Damage) = 37 SoR Damage each 1.5 Second = 46 TPS
Ironfoe will provide you around 56 Base Improved SoR damage + 6 from One-Handed Weapon spec = 62 SoR Damage + 10 (from 100 spell damage) = 72 SoR Damage each 2.4 Second = 57 TPS
This exclude the Damage and Threats done by the White Swings where Ironfoe still benefit much higher and much more compare to Flurry Axe thanks to Weapon Speed Coefficient related to Attack Power.
You are wrong there either , Judgement of Wisdom have limited Proc Rates , where plenty of times due to limits of your Proc Rates , Flurry Axe have high chance to end up with no JoW procs, while with Ironfoe you have guaranted Proc thanks to having a slower Weapon.
Thanks to Seal of Righteousness which is doubling the proc rate, it is making Ironfoe much more reliable compare to what you believe.
If you are lucky , you can see Reckbomb of 4 Hits thanks to mutual procs by Whiteswings+SoR at the same time!
At the end of the day , speaking about the downside , Both Flurry Axe and Ironfoe proc are unreliable and may not occur when you need it or occur at all. So they float the same Boat.
But thanks to faster Speed , is main reason why i suggest using Flurry Axe for shorter fights (trash clearing,spamming conse,5mans) and AoE.
While i suggested Ironfoe for longer fights against single target like Boss fights where such fights have longer duration and have big chance to have this weapon proc more often than once.
Ironfoe have 5% chance to proc , with SoR it has 10% chance to proc.
Flurry Axe have 2% chance to proc , with SoR it has 4% chance to proc.
Ok, there seems to be some confusion about the mechanics behind Seal of Righteousness so I will try to walk you through them.
Seal of Righteousness has two components. Its base damage, and its added damage from spelldamage.
The added damage from spelldamage is a flat 10% of your spellpower. If you add 100 Spellpower to your gear, this means SoR does 10 more damage.
Based on this we can conclude that a faster weapon gain more from your spellpower than a slower weapon.
The base scaling is a little more tricky. The damage of Seal of Righteousness is based on the level you learned the spell, and the current level your character.
The base damage for each rank and level can be seen in the spreadsheet found in the Pretty Lame Paladin Spreadsheet discord. https://discord.gg/YJx8wHF
Here’s the table. The rows represent level and the collumns represent each rank from 1-8.
https://i.imgur.com/S5Qyxzg.png
As we can see the base damage of SoR Rank 8 for a level 60 character is 18.675
To find out the damage Seal of Righteousness will do with a weapon we multiply this value by 1.2 if the character is wearing a twohander, and by 0.85 for a onehander and then by the speed of the weapon.
Now lets apply this formula to the two weapons in question:
Flurry Axe - 1.5 speed - ( 18.675 * 0.85 ) * 1.5 = 22.41
Ironfoe - 2.4 speed - (18.675 * 0.85 ) * 2.4 = 38.087
This means the total DPS of SoR with an Flurry Axe is 14.94 and the total DPS of SoR with an Ironfoe is 15.87. Note that weapons faster than 2.0 seconds experience a slight reduction in SoR damage. But even a small amount of Spellpower will very quickly close this gap.
With improved Righteous Fury active we are looking at roughly 30 TPS from Seal of Righteousness with Ironfoe and roughly 28.3 TPS from Flurry Axe.
Ironfoe have 5% chance to proc , with SoR it has 10% chance to proc.
Flurry Axe have 2% chance to proc , with SoR it has 4% chance to proc.
This is not true. I dont know where you get your numbers but both weapons have been extensively tested by the Fight Club discord, a data driven fantastic resource for Warrior Class/Melee mechanics of Classic. The real procrate on these two weapons are:
Flurry Axe - 4.66% - 1.865 Procs Per Minute
Ironfoe - 3.21% - 0.802 Procs Per Minute
https://i.imgur.com/Zme9a2m.png
You are wrong there either , Judgement of Wisdom have limited Proc Rates
No. Judgement of Wisdom has a 50% chance to trigger whenever you land an attack. There is no internal cooldown.
I invite anyone that wants to know how Paladin mechanics actually work to join one of the Paladin discords. We have several hard working Paladins who currently tank raids in Classic and have compiled a lot of information on these mechanics to the benefit of anyone interested in playing Protection Paladin.
https://discord.gg/YJx8wHF
For more general Paladin talk, and great resources on particularly Holy Paladins, join the Paladin Classic discord:
https://discord.gg/R5gZeVS
Put more talentpoints in holy, this will help you heal better then protection.
There is a reason why i left that Discord , because it provides slightly wrong information.
According to the Formula you wrote there , Flurry Axe Should be doing 22-23 SoR Damage , which in reality it does 24-25 Damage without Imp SoR and One-Handed Weap Spec factor !
56:09 Evidence opposing to what you wrote and Numbers from SoR can be seen there.
That is Pure evidence Spreadsheet you are trying to present is nothing but wrongly done with wrong numbers which is missmanipulating everyone.
People should never trust this Discord because of that and should leave it , instead of continue getting manipulated from it.
This is a big question from where this source is coming and how reliable is, hence the results was shown completely different on my tests.
That’s completely false theory either, JoW is limited to 15 Procs per Minute hence slow weapons have higher chance to have it proc, while fast weapons have lower chance to have it proc.
Spreadsheets are wrong always. One small mistake in the beginning will completely mess up the end result.
It’s from the Fight Club discord. You can go look at the data yourself. It’s obtained from swinging the weapons for tens of thousands of hits on a mob and recording the number of procs.
If you have conflicting evidence you are free to post it. Right now you are just stating that a well documented source is wrong without providing any evidence to support your own claim.
I’m waiting for you to post your test now.
That’s completely false theory either, JoW is limited to 15 Procs per Minute hence slow weapons have higher chance to have it proc, while fast weapons have lower chance to have it proc.
No, thats exactly how it works. Judgement of Wisdom has a flat 50% procrate. It’s Seal of Wisdom that is on a PPM formula. This is the very basics of Paladin mechanics.
Edit: Included a screenshot showing back to back procs in the chat. This would not happen if there had been an internal cooldown on Judgement of Wisdom.
https://i.imgur.com/nYWivcT.png
According to the Formula you wrote there , Flurry Axe Should be doing 22-23 SoR Damage , which in reality it does 24-25 Damage without Imp SoR and One-Handed Weap Spec factor !
It does 24-25 damage because you are in fact specced into improved Seal of Righteousness.
https://imgur.com/a/1eHYbe5
The formula is fine. You just dont know your own talent build.
Is this taken from a warrior or a paladin using the seal? Big difference. It would surprise me if they actually had protection paladin data on Ironfoe.
He just said it was without it though.
I dont understand what you are trying to say here. Are you implying the weapons got different procrates depending on what class is wearing them? If so I would like to see a source on that.
Seal of Righteousness just function as an additional melee swing for the purpose of triggering weapon procs.
The procrates I posted are the base procrate of the weapons obviously. Seal of Righteousness then makes Flurry Axe have a 4.66%+4.66% chance to proc, meaning you can get two procs on the same attack with some luck, but it averages out to 9.32% over a long enough duration. Same thing applies to Ironfoe where you have a 3.21%+3.21% chance to proc for an average procrate of 6.42% over a long enough duration.
In any case, the numbers Killerduki posted has nothing to do with the actual numbers for these weapons, unless you somehow believe the entire Warrior discord has the wrong data when its based on tens of thousands of attacks with these weapons against a single target.
He just said it was without it though.
And I demonstrated he has the talents. He’s free to a post a video or a screenshot showing his talent setup and the combat log while swinging on a target while wearing 0 spellpower so we can see for ourselves.
Besides, any Paladin can purchase a 2g green weapon with any speed on the Auction House and go test the Seal of Righeousness formula for themselves. Its accurate.
In my video with the Talents you can see i do 27 Damage , but i wrote without talents doing 24.
Also in the Video you can see that i have 0 Spell Power wearing either.
Watch the Video before you demonstrate that i am talking false things.
I am only stating that you are incorrect about how Seal of Righteousness works. The damage you are seeing is consistent with the formula I provided with an error margin of 1-2 damage on weapons faster than 2.0 seconds.
The average TPS from Seal of Righteousness stays consistent among every weapon speed. You are ofcourse free to pick up a 2.4 speed ( same as Ironfoe ) green weapon on the Auction House and take some screenshots if you believe the formula to be incorrect, but so far it has remained true for every weapon I have tested ingame.
Conclusion: Using a slower weapon has no advantages to a Paladin tank over using a fast one.
If there is an error margin of 1-2 damage on weapons faster than 2.0 seconds.
Imagine how huge error margins is going to be on weapons slower than 2.2 seconds.
Leading the horse to water only get you so far I suppose
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