From a competetive stand point, i kinda agree. But from and MMORPG stand point i’d go with resilience… but that’s just me ![:slight_smile:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/slight_smile.png?v=6" ":slight_smile:")
I am always surprised by this reasoning.
Think a bit.
What is PvP if not a competition?
Are you participating for graveyard runs or roleplay in ghost form?
M+ ruined the raiding for sure.
People are getting geared so fast that when a new raid is released they are already geared for normal raids.
World of warcraft is a story about the Horde vs The Alliance. in WSG you’re struggling to take over a strategic point to further the war effort. How is this not an MMORPG theme? 
How is this different to previous where the best geared players (Mythic raiders) didn’t even bother with Normal and went straight to HC/Mythic?
What has messed up the gearing in wow is not M+, but all the free high ilvl loot you get from things like Warfronts. And that lucky ¤&%#¤ getting a 420 trinket from a +4 or +0
And second, season 2 and the raid started at the same time, and even then, M+ was capped at 385 for the first week. So how is it M+ has ruined raiding?
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I must have missed it hiding behind the pillar in arena. 
Mythic plus did anything but ruin the game
Sure i can agree as many have said that the difficulty in M+ should be difficult mechanics and not a speedrun but as a concept, it is what MMOs should be.
At its very core, MMORPGs arent about huge sieges of cities or killing gods, its about dungeon delving with a small group, keeping dungeons relevant throughout an expac should’ve always been a top priority for Blizzard and they finally found a model that does that job well.
M+ is also much easier for people to get into than raiding, M+ doesnt have any entry level requirements, you can do most M+0 with no experience and no gear whatsoever and work your way up with PUGs and its not until you start hitting +10-15s that people start vetting you for experience.
Raiding has always been turned into such a chore even on Normal and Heroic difficulty, it turns into a job, schedules, application processes, timetables, and before BFA loot distribution etc, you ended up doing so much work outside of playing the actual game because raiding was the only real endgame PVE content.
Some people simply enjoy the 1 hour timeframe and the smaller groupsized instanced PvE, like how a lot of guilds chose to raid 10man in Wrath because 10 man is simply way more enjoyable than 25 man because its easier to organise.
If you want to make raiding more attractive to players then buff the gear, and Blizzard has done exactly that, just look at Crucible of Storms, you wont find gear with unique effects like that in M+ because its supposed to be a drawing factor to raids.
A change i would be fine with however is to cap M+ rewards at Heroic level raid gear so that if you want the ABSOLUTE PEAK endgame gear, you have to go do Mythic raiding, but otherwise its perfectly fine as is.
A full S3 character could still raid T5 content in that gear just fine the same way a full T6 character was able to do some PvP, just not at the top level.
And don’t tell me a full S3/S4 toon wasn’t able to breeze through mobs in open world content.
You get strong gear, but it’s not 100% suited for other situations.
They always want to increase the time played, but i personally would spend more time ingame doing PvP if i were to get items from it that would help me in PvP.
Now i just get gear that is worse than my mythic items, unless i reach 2.4k and even then it has to titanforge.
Becouse people run m+ non stop and get high ilvl.
Look at heroic dazar drop 405 and m+ drop 400 and when week reset tadaam 410.
I have to say I feel that I have to do M+ initially to be able to raid. It’s a source of gear and often needed gear (items that are best for your class).
However, it doesn’t take long to hit a point where the only way you can get an upgrade from M+ is via a fat titanforge. So from a having to do it point of view it’s shortlived.
After that point it becomes a for fun or to try and challenge yourself thing.
If they are running m+ dont stop, they are working for something, that probably in some cases requires more skill than hc raiding, which nowadays is just one more thing in LFR, (like most of m+). If you mentioned mythic raiding, it is another thing, the farming and organization envolved are vastly superior, but the rewarded gear too.
Diversify the end game is always good.
Cry me river raiders ![:violin:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/violin.png?v=6" ":violin:")
, your content is not the only one in the PvE from which the players can exclusively obtain the good gear anymore, now they got also other options. I don’t see that as anything bad for the game tbh.
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While personally I don’t want to see M+ gearing changed as it suits me, I know a few guilds won’t take players as new members at the start of a raid tier unless they are willing to chain run M+ in week 1 and week 2 of the season.
to be honest, I would put a lockout system on M+ to balance that with raiding…
For example we currently have 11 raidbosses (correct me if I am wrong, I am not to sure about that number) so you should be able to do 11 M+ dungeons at most per week.
This number can be adjusted by the keystone level, so for example 11 M+ per week only applies to +10 or higher. If you are not doing 11 +10 dungeons, you can replace 1 +10 dungeon with 2 lower dungeons (which means, if you do 9 M+10, you can still do 2 M+10 or 4 M+2-9) or something like that.
The reason is, that Blizzard stated, they view 1 M+ dungeon as 1 Raid encounter (they got rid of the ability to change talents for that reason) and you also have a chance to get 1 Item per raid boss, so it is reasonable for M+ to be the same…
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You not seeing it doesn’t mean it did not exist.
There is nothing wrong in the idea of having an alternate path to gear outside of raiding, the issues are in the execution.
-M+ is repeatable at will, raiding is a weekly lockout. This creates a disparity between the two path to the point m+ becomes preferrable for gearing than heroic raiding
-You get rewards even if you fail the timer, while in raid it’s either kill and loot, or no kill no loot.
If you combine those two things adding the fact that is much easier make a 5man group, why bother with raiding?
As many have noted, the issue is in the speed of gearing, not in the ability to get your gear from a different source.
Blizzard has to unlock raiding (unhealthy) or lock both. The current state of things reminds me Grand marshal raids of the past, when people had to play for 36+ hours without going to the toilet to get PvP titles.
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