Yh you should aspire to clear hc sure.
I like m+ too, a lot and its not about m+ gearing you with good gear, its that its infinitely farmable and that is much quicker to gear up through m+ than any other source.
That is completly against the essence of an RPG-MMO. It is like to ban pve gear, or equalizing it in raids, only allowing that the most skilled players reach the top charts of dps meters, or preventing that a less skilled player with better equip to survive to a wipe only to have more stamina.
This is a debate that is regular around here since at least the first expac, being now more salty with the added m+ factor. Of course that the majority of players that only invest their time doing pvp in a mmo-rpg, would see the enjoyment of playing it severely reduced with the remotion of its main characteristic: The improving of stats that results from time/effort and skill.
This type of game should Reward, (capital r), not only the skill, but the time and the effort invested on it. In my opinion on of the reasons of the apparent decay in popularity is related to this factor: The skilled above all, the reflex of the streamer generation, that only reward seriously some lucky ones that are gifted in 1/2 crucial life skills, sometimes, almost without effort and in no time.
Im perfectly ok with M+´s seriously rewarding the players that invest a serious amount of time and effort in it. The game lacks end game variety, the investment in raiding content in the last xpacs should have been applied in variety of end game content. Blizzactivision had short vision and invested a lot in âsafe bets/investmentsâ, like the raiding aspect of the game, that is likely to conserve players in the long time run, (probably instructions/orders to extend subscription in time at all cost), but for many is not enough appealing.
In respect to pvp, i hope that the vanilla return will confirm to all, that the RPG element of it, is almost from the begining one of the main pillars of the success of this game.
1 Like
i think people use the defense âits an MMORPGâ too often when its not applicable.
MMO = massively multiplayer online. this means its an online game, and it has a lot of players. where most games which are not MMO normally dont have more than a 1 or 2 dozen, MMOâs have tens of thousands.
RPG = Role Playing Game. this means its a game where you can immerse yourself in what it is like to be your avatar.
anything else is a defense of the way a lot of MMORPGâs started out 20-25 years ago where they had to try and keep you playing a long time, with limited content due to constraints of technology of the day. im not going to dig out my original copy of WoW at this time of night, but off the top of my head, as an example but vanilla had to be installed from 5(*) CDâs.
making us farm the same content over and over for the hope of a reward (RNG) is just playing us for the fool. this is not Role Playing (Game), this is trying to keep us occupied with little content.
I personally do not get how M+ is a thing. its repeating the same dungeon 2-30+ times (presuming your upgraded key always gave you the same dungeon, which i know it dont). its the same dungeon. but to each their own.
3 Likes
RPG besides immersion accounts for the evolution of the character too, time/effort invested and ofc skills equals to feel and effectively be stronger. Play only for the placard, for the sport, at least imo does not belong here and that is being pushed in pvp and in pve.
RNG belongs to this game since forever, but with a big difference that is being accentuated in the several last expansions: That difference resides in the extremely obvious time gated aspect of the game. In the past you had long paths, that included some kind of farming, grindind and effort, but you knew that you only depend from yourself/guildies/friends to accomplish it and in the end taste your delicious reward to pose in orgri. Now is basically a short term race to get there first, knowing that almost everyone will complete it sooner or later, to few months later start all over again. There is a lack of end game variety, the end game rewarding system shouldnt be so bottlenecked and the time invested in the game should count more to the final goals, instead of pure skill, or the ability to be in the right guild/team at the right time.
I love how much people cry about how easy it is to get gear, but then talk badly about making pvp and pve competitive. Spending time playing a game more than other people is the right way to go.
Its not about hating, or not hating. Its about a game that rewards you, and makes sense in the reward.
People on wow are too obstreperous, and nonsense people, cry and cry about free loot, and nothing feeling rewarding. But they donât want the people that play more, and have more time to get ahead of them, haha.
What made the game rewarding, and not throwing gear in your face was spending a lot of hours playing, and grinding the best. For those who donât have a lot of time, sad for you.
Selfish bunch of pigs.
1 Like
The spark is good for casters only.
For melee dps, there is very little in boda that justify it in terms of loot. No bis trinkets and 1/2 azerite pieces since for most classes TC is not worth it.
At the same ilvl, m+ is much more appealing.
CoS is the same, i havenât find a piece that is worth it for my ret, so itâs M+ again and again. And some pvp since the sinister trinkets are incredibly op even in pve.
1 Like
Itâs faster to 400 sure, but to actually get decent gear, mythic raiding is much faster and consistent.
1 Like
I agree that PVP gear rewards really need some rework, but I have yet to be convinced that Mythic+ ruins raiding.
Firstly, Blizzard has stated that their internal data shows that there is a huge overlap between those who raid and those who run Mythic+. In other words, players who only run Mythic+ while occasionally raiding are very niche. The idea that Mythic+ is discouraging raiding is a myth.
Secondly, to address the inevitable âbut 415 gearâ argument, gear is more than just an item level. Your best items are probably not going to come from Mythic+. Your best or most optimal items are probably going to come from the Dazarâalor raid, as it does not share loot tables with Mythic+. Mythic+ dungeons have loot tables that rarely change if ever in an expansion. Additionally, Mythic+ does not drop Azerite gear. Instead, you have to work for that gear over possibly multiple weeks through Titan Residuum that you get from the end-of-week chest. That gear is expensive.
Thirdly, while this is minor, Mythic+ does not drop Breath of Bowansamdi, which is a requirement for advanced crafting recipes.
I know folks want to pit the blame for raid burnout on Mythic+, and also might ignorantly see the â415â item level and think that is unfair, but the reality is that raid burnout is a symptom of a different problem altogether.
2 Likes
Get a life dude, what are you 12 ? You deserve the ban for calling other people like this and the way you communicate on the forum. The community in the game would be in a way better state without the people like you. And reported.
2 Likes
i agree with a lot of what youâre saying if i understand you right. i think there should be paths that you have to follow to do certain content, namely, like the attunement questlines in TBC among other things.
But as i mentioned above, i believe RNG is a tool that was only used because of the state of game tech at that time, and has been used since as a veil to hide lack of substance in certain fields.
From your explination, yes, there should be paths you have to follow to get certain rewards which you have to farm/grind your way there. (within reason though, insane grinds i think are counterproductive). having a 100 quest chain to get a mount is âokâ if you know you will 100% get the mount at the end of those 100 quests. but the game to a massive degree now is like you do your 100 quests, then you have a 0.1% chance for that mount. that is when RNG has no place in a RPG.
PvE gear is ruining PvP. Itâs not just M+, itâs raid gear now as well.
Itâs already too slow paced with some classes being far too tanky, then they add in various pve gear that just slows it down even further.
1 Like
Discouraging raiding is not the right word. Itâs replacing raiding, at the point of being almost mandatory.
M+ give each week is a 410 item which is above heroic with much less effort than mythic raiding.
M+ has a much wider loot table, you can find the right stat for your class while i canât say the same for the loot in boda. Rings and trinkets are the main offenders here.
M+ reward residuum for a 415 azerite item every 2 weeks roughly, and for every class that isnât deep into TC (the other boda traits are ludicrous) they are the go to choice.
People who run massively M+ raid for the group, to gear alts or because they need 1 item out of 9 boss, but they still do the whole run. So itâs not discouraging raiding but itâs replacing it as main source of loot at least up to heroic level.
2 Likes
Yesterday I watched Maldiva playing dk-lock-monk.
They won against nearly all RMPs due to a new tank trinket: upon use the player gives a shield to his teammate equal to 60-80% of his max HP.
When I saw those life bars going from 10% to 80% all white, I could not believe my eyes.
I give up.
1 Like
Hmm, we have 1-2 raiders that havenât done a single M+ all raid tier yet are at 415 ilvl.
If youâre raiding mythic M+ really isnât neccessary, after the first few weeks. Apart from getting trinkets.
melee have most BiS in M+ and it isnât about IL. The weapons from mythic BoD jsut donât compare except in IL. Realize M+ is absicly mandatory because of the wide range of items, especially trinkets (god⌠Iâm going for PvP trinkets because all melee ones are simply meh and and 2 of them just bad). M+ was supposed to be equal but it doesnât it feels mandatory to get most good gear. Yeah fine I get 415s in mythic BoD doesnât change the effects are bad or stats. Not saying nerf mythic+ but atleast fix raid and non-rated PvP gear. Especially the trinkets because blimy. Iâm not motivated at all to progress now all BiS is in M+ and I already have mythic shoulders, cloak and 2 rings which are BiS.
I Hope the next tier will be better.
On the flip side, if you want the best gear to push really high keys you need BoD mythic. Kimbuls trinket is bis for DHâŚ
The problem isnt ilvl imo.
The best solution is for raid gear to have something raid specific to help.
Give pvp resilience again.
And a M+ stat.
This would mean best raid gear comes from raids.
Best pvp gear comes from pvp.
And best M+ gear comes from M+
But this whole concept is something that was left behind by bliz ages ago. Because in their opinion, and a large portion of the playerbase, it could not be right you had the best gear from content X and was completely useless in content Y
The problem is the stat squish combined with losing stats from 3 major slots.
The less stats available, the more combination you need to make your class run decently.
You cannot have 6-7 types of legs or feet from a raid, therefore going M+ is mandatory to put a band-aid to this.
But this whole concept is something that was left behind by bliz ages ago. Because in their opinion, and a large portion of the playerbase, it could not be right you had the best gear from content X and was completely useless in content Y
And at least in my opinion they are right, it is the same game afterall. Why cant a good end game raider do a âfairâ duel using the gear hardly earned against a good end game pvper in a duel?
Why a raider cant go walking around, or just exploring the world feeling that with that gear earned killing bosses all the way through the last boss in the xzy raid, shouldnt have an absolute confidence against any opponent, even against the pvp geeks?
Bottlenecking end game gearing is no sense and blizz already spotted it, they are just afraid to lose the subscriptions related to big/medium raiding guilds, the mostly safe subscriptions iâd say. Meanwhile⌠" Better to be safe than sorry, but nothing ventured, nothing gained."
The problem is, we often see the best gear for pvp, is the gear obtained in PVE. See previous expansions with ridiculus trinkets that could pretty much one shot everyone.
While i agree, a mythic raider, should be able to do reasonably well in pvp with his gear, he should not be able to dominate. And the oposite is ofc true aswell. Look at WoD, the pvp was so good and easy to get that it was the go to starter set to start raiding.
PVP gear SHOULD have an edge in PvP.
Mythic+ gear SHOULD have an edge in Mythic+
And raid gear SHOULD have an edge in raids.
And please notice âan edgeâ that does not mean a fully geared mythic raider could just as well be naked in pvp.
Iâd rather have no gear in PvP at all, but resilience-based approach is also acceptable, if they cannot come up with anything better.