Yeah. People complain about everything. People complain about DPriest being OP and tier sets being garbage.
Its the rate of complaints what matters Puny. When 1/2 of the forum is complaining about the same exact thing, then you can confidently say that there is a systemic problem. When its just 1 dude every month… you can confidently say its a “you problem”.
So when in S1 half the posts in the forum were about leavers, you could argue that there was a systemic problem. Unlike today in S2 where almost nobody complains anymore. So blizzard did something that solved the issue. Right?
And then…
Looking at your link here:
Its funny to notice that from the recent posts about the subject, 9/10 posts are concerning PvP or HC dungeons. Where there IS a penalty for leaving.
So if anything, it proves my point. There is little Leaver problems in M+ at the moment because it was largely solved. And a deserter “punishment” has not decreased the number of leavers in the form of content it is implemented in. So “punishment” had no effect at all and did not solve the Leaver problem.
Puny has put in evidence that atleast when it comes to forum complaints, the Leaver issue has been largely solved.
So… we got the solution right in-front of us. I dont know why its so obvious to me, but not to blizzard. And especially not to all the monkeys here wanting to punish leavers just so they can feel better.
You are free to draw your own conclusions. From my point of view it’s a regular complaint and one that Blizzard is now starting to try to address. First we saw punishments for excessive leaving and now this.
I am not someone who leaves keys generally speaking, so I’m indifferent to these measures myself. I tend to complete runs even if they are over time. But once someone has left there is no point staying ofc. I just want them to not make it so people can be falsely caught up in this.
It’s indeed a common theme and something, which you will hear people talk about in Discord, guild chat, voice comms etc.
Again, Uda is basing their opinion on what is being created within this forum.
As others have said, they’re getting worked up over nothing, which isn’t going to personally impact their ability to run keys.
This debuff will be more impactful in lower keys, where the majority of the leavers happen. If people get the debuff, they can ask their friends or guild to assist them in getting the debuff removed. I’m sure there will be communities created on Discord for this very thing.
Remember Uda, these forums are NOT the only source of information that Blizzard reviews
gl proving that you sabotage the key if you repeatedly die on boss fights and liek 1k gold on repairs is nothing if it saves you time cause someone else will leave first.
With any new system, people find ways to abuse it/break it.
Hopefully the people responsible for this system will be reviewing reports/feedback etc about what people are doing and thus apply the recommend steps to avoid the abuse of said mechanics/groups.
For example a background system, where if a player is reported say 12 times, while within an M+, that they’re sabotaging or something similar to get the group to vote to leave, then they’re blocked from being able to doing any further M+ runs for 24 hours (it should be a battle.net wide block).
So that 1 person would need to continue to act in this manner to get 3 full groups to report them.
Make it where this report doesn’t work outside of M+, because we all know how some people in this game are to spoil the fun for others. People would get targeted for different reasons.
Its a regular complaint for PvPers and HC dungeons (matchmaking). And I draw that conclusion from the link you yourself posed. You can look it up yourself as well.
Why go through the middle man then? Why not simply join that community to begin with?
I know. Perfectly well.
But let me ask you one thing:
What’s up with Magiola’s PoV then?
What’s up with my PoV as well? I havent found any leavers. Across any key-level difficulty. From M+2 to M+15. Am I special or something?
I mean… you cant argue that its “widespread” and then have people that never see a Leaver. Its a contradictory statement.
And finally:
I know. But what I told Puny is also true in Discord and and guild chat. In S1 it was the main topic of conversation. In S2 I barely hear it at all.
What this means is that there is something that produces positive results that dosent imply punishing people.
Maybe you are right and it wont be a big deal. If it’s not a big deal however, then there was no Leaver problem to begin with. But hey. I might be wrong. Who knows.
I just want to be sure that if I am right (and I have all the reasons to be scheptical given the “success” of the Deserter debuff at addressing leavers…) when people come to the forums complaining about this stuff (myself included):
I will be able to say “I told you so” and will be able to point fingers to you and Puny. Saying that its all Puny’s fault (everything is his fault). And that you said “nothing would happen” when it obviously would.
Its not the response to you. I just used you as an example to underline that leavers are not widespread, or, that there is something the player can do to prevent them. Something that is much more effective than a deserter aura.
Hope you dont take it personal.
Also. I do tend to argue with myself. It can happen. It has happened before.
But please don’t forget the context. I don’t face leavers often, probably partly because the invitation process used is quite limiting to the ones signing up (I/we rarely join someone else’s key). I/We don’t use fair metrics, but they seem to work for us so we keep using them, and we improve them over time.
another bad system after the deserter change in hc dungeons,( which they only introduced, because ppl had nothing to do in the first 2 weeks of tww and farmed the first boss of ara kara for the trinket)
Now you can kick ppl for what ever and they get 30 min debuff
I’ll be enjoying the stories of 3-4 people premade, which will take keys hostage and probably forcing player to “tip” to end the dungeon properly, else you wont end the dungeon, probably leave the group and get a deserter debuff
Have fun of a bigger heal/tank shortage in the dungeon tool, because they dont wanna carry dds which stand in fire or doing below tank dmg/ be auto shot afk.
Also take into consideration the other regions where WoW is played. We’re in our own little bubble here, and what you’ve experience may not be what the average joes’ experiences.
So at the end of the day the system is being added whether if you, me or the next forum Andy likes or dislikes the feature
Cause some people need motivation to begin with. Its the same rl analogy with an “average student”. When does the average student actually studies? When his backside is on with an upcoming exam or something. When its “calm waters” mid semester or something then ofc most are just laid back as a result.
So if people acting as in pugs can get away with it scot free, then ofc they will continue to do, but if they get branded with a mark of shame and need those NPCS as you call them to remove it…then they will start treating as humans if they want to join any community.
So if said system actually encourages people to join a community or socialize…even “out of need” then I am starting to consider it as a blessing in a disguise.
Right. People complain there is “toxicity” and “leavers”.
The solution we tend to give in the forums is for them to join a community. Then all those problems disappear. What more “motivation” do you need? Its an absurd proposition Lynlia.
That is why I genuinely believe punishment systems dont work. If people are douches, they will continue to be douches. Nothing will change that. All I know is that if someone is salty and wants to rage quit, either he will do so anyways regardless of the punishment, OR, he will actively “rage grief” the key. Because no punishment will make him rage less than what he does already.
And I know. Because we have a deserter system for PvP and HC dungeons and there is no reduction on leavers. It does nothing.
Having an environment which encourages this only makes it worse - aka can get away with it.
Those who are douches down to the bone, will remain so regardless of any system, I agree with you there. But there are also people who are douches simply cause “what can they do to me? I am behind a monitor!” in real life…they might keep their mouths shut…especially if they fear that they could need a “an emergency dental appointment” afterwards. Aka. their actions having a consequences.
Even my own example. You know my PoV with absolute random pugs and how I act there so lets not go off-topic about it. Suffice to say, regardless how I act or what I say(or dont say to be more precise), what will random pug do about it? Absolutely nothing. While in a community run, I would be alienated very fast and lets not talk about guildies or even friends - who would want to play with a guy like that?
Aka my actions = has consequences. In a pug scene, you can do whatever you want, you will 99% get away with it scot free.
And forcing that nasty individual to continue to play with you is a better alternative than simply disbanding and trying again with a different group?
Sometimes accepting the reality that there are some bad apples (that thankfully are a minority) is better. A solution to a problem sometimes is doing nothing about it.
It causes at least a tinny inconvenience for said leave then sure.
Because right now. Something goes wrong? Somebody ragequits…who takes the hit? “The key holder” while the ragequiter is free to join another key and repeat as well.
A while back, I argued in punishment discussions that its unfair that why should only the key holder get “actually punished” while the rest can continue on, worry free? While there wount be a punishment system which serves out “justice” fairly amongs every party involved but if said ragequiter at least suffers some inconvenience…is good enough for me.
Same analogy with them speed cameras(my countrys driving culture is bad ). People overspend on a level that they treat speed restrictions signs…as “recommendations”. They only hit the break pedal on places where speed cameras are located. So some argue…whats the point if 99% of the route they overspeed and hit the break just in that 1 place? I consider it still a win cause hitting the break pedal now and then is still better than unhindered 100% free overspending everywhere.
So if said ragequiter actually has to hit some break pedals and suffer even mild inconvenience…is already good enough for me than going full 100% speeding without a care in the world.
and liek 1k gold on repairs is nothing if it saves you time cause someone else will leave first.
with an upcoming exam or something. When its “calm waters” mid semester or something then ofc most are just laid back as a result.
in pugs can get away with it scot free, then ofc they will continue to do, but if they get branded with a mark of shame and need those NPCS as you call them to remove it…then they will start treating as humans if they want to join any community.
). People overspend on a level that they treat speed restrictions signs…as “recommendations”. They only hit the break pedal on places where speed cameras are located. So some argue…whats the point if 99% of the route they overspeed and hit the break just in that 1 place? I consider it still a win cause hitting the break pedal now and then is still better than unhindered 100% free overspending everywhere.