When someone rage quits its because he is salty about something. And if he stays, he will continue to be salty about something.
That can be even worse. Usually someone that is that salty, will start writing inappropriate things in the /party. Stop caring about the run so he wont kick or perform. He wont be a team member anymore.
The threat of punishment will not make the rage that player has go away. All it will do is focus the rage somewhere else.
I ask again. Are you 100% positive you want that person in your group? Because that is the other side of the coin you know? You cant just focus on one side:
Ofc. I am aware of it, hence my first post in this discusion:
Lets just say that we have vastly different opinions on whats a team and what isnt. I dont consider random pugs as “teams” to begin with.
I am not saying that there wont be new problems. There is no golden solution which “fixes everything and causes no other issues or sideeffects”. But if Blizzard really did decide to introduce such system then they felt that its potential gains outweighted the cons.
Look, we both agree that Blizzard woulnt introduce or delete anything simply because “1 random Joe wrote an angry forum post”. There must have been other stressing factors pressuring them…
You have to start making penalties, players made this toxic behavior and no new player want to try mythic +due to those.
“Make mythic + great again”. I my self wants to play them but the lower ones are too easy and i never get invited for the higher ones, so i have up. Also because people are really toxic in pugs when you make a small mistake.
Why are we speculating about this? We know already what happens with the Deserter debuff.
The ONLY way to solve it is for the other 4 individuals to kick him out. And he gets the deserter debuff as a punishment for greafing.
Otherwise, he will greaf and greaf and greaf until we all vote to end the run and disband. And he gets out scot-free anyways but with extra steps. And a bit angrier and with more BS on the /party.
But you know what happens then right?
Turns out that now you got trolls to deal with:
I mean… all of this is a Deja-Vu from the development of the Deserter system. And that did not solve any issues. Why should this one?
Especially because I already said that the amount of leavers is proportional to the completion rates of dungeons. In other words, the ONLY thing that works is to reduce the reasons someone might “rage” about something. Thats the only thing that can reduce the “rage” in Rage-Quitters.
And they successfully did it in S2 TWW. Compared to S1. The solution is so obvious.
In a random heroic dungeon run? No problem, get another rando in in less than a minute(maybe longer if it was a tank/healer who left).
In m+, the other 4 guys are also punished cause the run can be prettty much canceled…unless it was a dps who left and they are willing to 4 man it.
Even then if they 4 man it and finish it, the left guy can still get rewards mailed to him? So not only he was toxic and left…but even got rewarded for his troubles?
IMO none of that is a problem. As long as its only 1/100 runs. Which is the case. Especially when the best defense against Leavers and Toxicity is YOU. The player himself.
All this is simply asking blizzard to try to solve community problems because the community itself is too immature and whiny to fix it themselves.
I would not find this surprising if this was PalWorld with an average player age of 15. But last thing I read somewhere is that the average wow player is 30.
You know what they say. You can forget 99 of the times when somebody was nice to you and remember that 1 guy who was a to you till the day you die.
So humans are emotional beings not cold-hearted computers which base everything by 0s and 1s.
If you KNOW that 99% of runs are fine. Then why do you take that 1% so seriously? Cause maybe… maybe… THEY are the Rage-Quitters…
Also you dont have to be a computer to recognize. Its the other way around.
If you recognize that Lynlia is a person behind a computer, and you talk to that toon as if it was a real human being, a person… then none of these problems would exist.
Its people behaving like robots treating others like NPCs that creates these problems.
Well tbh. We can’t really speak beyond our own PoVs. I also dont see any toxicity around simply cause I either play with my friends/guildies/communities and they obviously dont treat you as an NPC…or pugs with all communications channels shut down so regardless if the other 4 party members was raging at me…or singing praises to me, I couldnt see it anyway…so “if I cant see toxicity = there is no toxicity in my PoV”
But are the other people who play like me? Maybe…I dont know.
So we cant really make claims that our M+ PoVs are shared by some “majority of every m+ runners”.
Maybe somebody else suffers m+ toxicity way more than me or you do. Now…can we prove that its indeed the case? Nop. But can we fully disregard it as well?..nop. Simply cause we dont have the data to begin with…
Random pug scene where you won’t see the other guys ever again in 30 mins…doesnt encourage much socialization - no point in the “investment”.
Which can be done easily without.
3.3k guys dont have to “discuss the route” to do a +10. Many runs I have been in, people dont as much as say a hello(when I still had at least party chat enabled) yet could easily do it simply by following your “standard route, standard pulls, standard hero timers”.
Communication plays its part if you are planning to deviate or try something else.
On a +10, +12, if nobody says anything, people default to your “basic route and settings” and in most cases, can do the run just fine.
I tell the tank to go wherever he wants. Im fine with anything.
If people dont even bother saying “Hello” then why are they surprised that there are leavers and toxic people?
Of course there will be ! You get treated as good/bad as you treat others. You treat others as NPCs (do your job and shut up) you will get treated the same way.
And the reason I dont have any leavers or toxicity in my runs is because I do say “hello”. I do engage in some small talk. And it works.
Cause if it did not, I would be posting on this very forum the absurd amount of leavers and greafers too. But I am not.
Mine is unpredictable as well. Sometimes I could literally just not even go to work and no-one would notice, and other times I get to continue to work from home.
Apparently there are people who dont share this view and I agree to an extent.
As I mentioned before, up to +12s, there is no need to do “mandatory” talking cause most pugs will assume that you will follow the default “done by most pugs” route and pulls. Hence why my self imposed isolation works on my tanking in pugs - unless I do something incredibly new or unexpected, people wont bat an eye what I do. If I wanted to go to +15 range with my tank then my self imposed isolation woulnt work, that range requires people to communicate and work in sync for a success. So regardless what I feel about pugs, I would need to talk to them.
But since up to 12, people do it for their “vault chore”, they also treat it as such and want to “get in and get out as fast as possible” so…I dont blame people not wanting to… stop and talk about the weather.
Edit: Also regarding the rage causes. From my personal PoV - most runs fail simply cause people fail on basic tacs. And while I dont rage myself(or ragequit)…I somewhat understand somebody getting annoyed if a guy comes to a +12 and doesnt know how the freaking boss works and gets hit with everything…
I am not here to judge the way you do things. And others will have other ways to do things. And that is fine. If it works for you, then who am I to judge?
What I am trying to remind people is that everything has a pro and a con. No matter what you do.
Your attitude that can be resumed in “the only reason to type something in the /party is route, coordination, ect…” has its pros and cons.
And one of it’s cons is that PuGs will not be engaged with you. Why do you think guild mates never leave keys and are willing to spend 2h wiping with you?
Another con is this:
Assume. KEY word there. What happens if you do a pull or something that someone else dosent agree with? Or did not “assume”? Or maybe they are there for a “chill run” but your routing is too aggressive, because you assume “that’s how things are done”? Thats right. You get a rage-quitter. In a +10.
So… The TLDR of this is:
Treat people however you want. Its your choice. But OWN the consequences. Dont ask “Daddy Blizzard” to deal with Leavers for you. Thats the coward and irresponsible way to do things.
And for the record, my attitude of treating PuGs as if they were guild mates also has cons. Dont get me wrong. But leavers, greafers and toxic people are not one of those cons.
Its a fair assumption that people will follow default route done by most if not all pugs. Its also a fair assumption that if you join a +10, then you got at least the basic knowledge of what the bosses do.
There are stuff which needs to be talked though and stuff which you can assume. Like going to an airport. Unless the airline says otherwise, its safe to assume that your plane will be there right? Even though, last minute cancellations, bumps, delays CAN of course happen.
So me going on a weekly clear group on a +10 DFC with 3.2k guys, I should be able to safely assume that they at least know the basic route and basic boss fight mechanics. I shoulnt require a written confirmation from a timed +14 DFC guy that he “knows what to do in a DFC +10”.
Who said I didnt? Nor did I actively campaign for Blizzard to introduce said system. So if you think Blizzard introduced such system just because I asked? uhm…thanks for the compliment but I dont hold such power.
When ragequits happens in pug M+s. I dont write whine and complain posts or otherwise act salty. If anything, when I enter a pug m+ scene, I go in with full expectation that somebody might rage quit and if it does happen - “Nothing to see here. Just your average m+ pug scene. Keep calm and carry on”.
Edit: Its the sole purpose why I engage with communities and guildies in the first place. And leave the regular m+ pugs for your “lets see if this rando ragequits after this death/wipe or not” delights.
Well how about this: Player A “assumes” everyone is doing the +10 for gear. Player B “assumes” that everyone is doing the +10 for Rio.
2 wipes (which is not a big deal) and you know 100% certain that you will not time the key. But its totally doable with like 1 min overtime, which is not a big deal. Is player B leaving justified or not? After all, he “assumes” nobody else wants to finish the key. So many “assumptions”.
Like this one:
Some 3.2k players “assume” that the +10 will take 10 minutes. That you can pull half the dungeon and everything is fine. Other 3.2k players “assume” that everyone else in the group also knows the bosses as they do, even though everyone else is not 3.2k.
Like I said. You choose to “assume” way too many things, however obvious they may be. That attitude is not good or bad. Its 100% acceptable. But it has pros and cons. One of the cons is that they day that is not the case you will have a leaver.
Anyone that has a lot of leavers and toxicity is because they “assume” way too many things. Like you do.
That’s fair. And to be clear, I was not neceserely addressing you in particular.
Because this system did get introduced because of other people whining about leavers with out understanding that their own attitude creates them. And most importantly, fail to understand that its not in blizzards hand to solve a community problem (lack of communication, too much “assuming”).
Ofc but then we are going back to the old “why is WoW not social anymore?!” discusions some old “I played back in first beta” guys sometimes make.
TL:DR - Blizzard can’t force you talk if you dont want it.
And while I also support the “hands off from the apprentice” teaching method. Aka let the apprentice learn and figure out himself, let him make mistakes cause he learns from them. Eventually the mentor has to intervene IF the apprentice is starting to dig the hole way to deep for him to ever get out…
It is in blizzard hands, its their game and when you start seing misbehavior like that they need to act. If entire mythic + society stops today, new will appear. Maybe a nicer one
to you till the day you die.
