Edit: This reply system/thread system on this forum is visually really confusing not gonna lie lol. Sometimes it doesn’t even seem to work (doesn’t show the reply accordeon)
It makes me toxic (frustrated) too (after only couple of weeks playing this game). I think its by design (just as in League), not sure if intentionally though.
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M+ with random people, is probably the way most people play m+, right?
Correct me if I am wrong.
The main thing I noticed is people leaving because they think we cannot make it in time (which they are usually wrong about in my opinion, but that is another topic).
Why? Because the dungeon is timed and there is no other incentive to still complete the dungeon after time ran out, at all.
Reasons as to why there is no incentive to complete it untimed or close to that:
The drop rates are so abysmally low (yes I know it is 2/5, in theory. Everyone knows it does not feel like that (and what it feels like matters, even if it may statistically be true nonetheless) that nobody would continue for the drops.
The gold reward is abysmally low as well, and your repair costs will be magnitudes higher than whatever you get out of the dungeon.
Edit:
Here is another reason timed dungeons concept is worse than untimed or timed with worse rewards at untimed completion:
people always expect you to know what you are doing, not that you are learning it. Bascially they expect you to read a book instead of learning by doing - because if you do not know what you are doing you are literally wasting their time because they will get nothing out of it if you do not finish in time because you needed an explanation first.
Edit 2: another reason:
no incentive to play anything BUT M+ in terms of dungeons (to learn for example), because at the start of it is easy enough that you can hop straight into mythic plus (I did. I didn’t play a single heroic or normal dungeon on max level)
Here are my 2 cents on how to fix it (if one even wants to fix it, I heard frustration = engagement somewhere in the vastness of the interwebs and its marketing experts):
Increase the drop rates of gear and whatever other stuff by a long damn shot.
If you do not manage to clear the dungeon in time, decrease the ilvl of the gear that is dropped. But do not drop nothing, not even materials, gold etcetera EVER.
Not a single dungeon run should be without at least a single item for each player and a gold reward that does at least double the cost of repairs any average m+ run causes.
Alternatively:
Remove timed dungeons entirely.
Make M+ a different format where the mechanics get harder and harder with each key upgrade, so much harder that it results in the same incapability of completing it without a certain skill/gear (does cost development time so… not the “cheapest” way of improving the experience ofc) alternatively increase damage etcetera even more so that the mere completion becomes the challenge, instead of the completion in time.
Increase droprates as well. Significantly. There is no feeling that is worse than wasting 30 minutes of your life for getting nothing out of a potentially frustrating run of a dungeon in a video game… numerous times in a row
That would make it much less toxic (in my opinion) to play this. It would just completely cancel out the league of legends ranked type experience that at least myself got in the couple of weeks in which I am playing this game.
There are levels where you can learn the dungeon (low levels). Come some stage I expect you to know what you’re doing. If you don’t then people aren’t there to carry you. If people are constantly leaving you’re in over your head and likely the problem.
No. Don’t like it? Don’t do it. Plenty of people enjoy it, who are you to advocate removing one of the main pillars of the game because of limited experience?
No. You gear quickly anyway. If you’re playing a game and the only reason you’re doing it is to salivate for the end of dungeon drop go do something else because you’ll never ever be satisfied.
Join a community, there are a lot of good ones where you can find a level of dungeon that suits you.
Sorry if it’s a dead horse, didn’t know. I just felt like talking about it because I do definitely like the game so far - just this part kinda bothered me. Probably because it is addictive too. So I kept playing it even if I didn’t really like that part that much.
I think and this is me just blabbering about… the timer is not an issue.
The level of difficulty of these dungeons is very high. the level of precision, focus, planning on a boss tyrannical is mental. Some of the bosses last as the same time as a raid boss.
And what about trash where one single pack can have up to 8 different mechanics to deal?
I think it’s the dungeon tuning that needs to be addressed, not the timer. In BFA/SL I’ve seen a lot of disbands but never (never) as much as DF. People rarely leave after a death or two… but wipe on a boss? Key is gg.
Yes timers are sometimes tighter than me after eating lemon and rice but… if the bosses weren’t so difficult people might actually time more keys and have more fun.
No, no, don’t get me wrong, you can talk about it and discuss your ideas. Especially as it’s relevant content to me. I just know this is going to go where every other M+ thread has gone: dead end.
Edit:
In terms of gearing up too quickly, I didn’t mean by increasing gear drop rate, to increase the speed with which you gear up in terms of ilvl. It’s merely a pyschological thing I suggested, even if you get an item that you do not need it is still better than getting nothing at all except 20 gold. Or even if its just materials for some crafting stuff it does not matter, really. Just something that makes opening the big chest feel better.
There are levels where you can learn the dungeon (low levels). Come some stage I expect you to know what you’re doing. If you don’t then people aren’t there to carry you. If people are constantly leaving you’re in over your head and likely the problem.
I understand where you are coming from but I disagree for this reason:
If you designing your game and make me capable of clearing said dungeons with people on my level (in this case gearscore+keylevel combination) with no problem, up to a certain point, then I do belong to that point (most likely, exceptions are ofcourse possible) and people who are leaving are (most likely, most often) not better than me nor worse than me. It’s like a ranked system. Edit: And the leaving (in my opinion) is a mentality issue. I do not do it (so far) unless we mutually agreed upon it or nobody is left in the group anyway.
No. Don’t like it? Don’t do it. Plenty of people enjoy it, who are you to advocate removing one of the main pillars of the game because of limited experience?
This reply radiates an unlikeable demeanor, if you ask me. I do not claim to be anyone of particular importance, why do you feel like I do? I am simply a person who wanted to make a suggestion. Don’t like it? That’s fine, it is your opinion and you have every right to have it and I didn’t mean to suggest otherwise.
I think one of the main reasons is that people don’t want over-time runs in their RIO history. This doesn’t matter to me because I almost only do M+ runs with friends, but if I had to PUG M+, then I would have to care about this because it’s a metric that better group leaders take into consideration.
At higher key levels (past 20), people often play to push and for rating gains. If they just wanted items or vault slots, they could simply do 18-20s. So giving more gold or item rewards wouldn’t prevent people from leaving, because they can get that from timed runs also.
This would lead to more leavers and more abandoned runs. The fact that you at least get the guaranteed two items at the end of the run is a reason to complete over-time keys if you’re doing them for items for vault slots.
The real solutions are these:
Make and play with friends.
Join a guild that does M+.
Join a Discord community that focuses on M+ and raids.
Any of those will fix the issues with pugging M+. The first two may not be easy to pull off for everyone, but the third option is very feasible and it’s a massive step up from full-on pugging.
The timer is generous. Trashing is okay in most dungeons. The problem is people being retarded and taking any advice or order a personal offense and just quit. The other half is the boosted who die to frontal attacks when fighting Tyr. The rest who knows how and what to do are either premade or high rio already.
Hi thanks for your suggestions. Yeah I will search for an active group of people with which I can do raids and dungeons regularly instead of joining random groups, although it is not that easy in my real life situation. Sometimes I have time to write on a forum at 2am and sometimes I don’t have time at all
I think one of the main reasons is that people don’t want over-time runs in their RIO history. This doesn’t matter to me because I almost only do M+ runs with friends, but if I had to PUG M+, then I would have to care about this because it’s a metric that better group leaders take into consideration.
I see. Well if that is the case then there is not much to be done about it, really.
So giving more gold or item rewards wouldn’t prevent people from leaving, because they can get that from timed runs also.
I don’t think I understand what you are trying to say
People would rather do timed run with the same rewards than finishing with worse time even if the rewards are still useful to them just a little bit less than if you finish faster?
My suggestions were aimed at making you clear a dungeon for the progress. And if leaving sets you back in the progress further than finishing a dungeon untimed then its correct in my opinion and it would certainly combat leaving. Leaving (and hopping into another group ofcourse) should not be a better progress than finishing in overtime.
I can recommend “No Pressure” and “Chill Streak” on Discord (No Pressure also has a web site). Both are fairly large with many people doing M+ and looking for others across all key level brackets. They also offer raid opportunities.
Their focus is on providing a non-toxic environment that is suited for learning and meeting new people, so everyone is welcome. The main requirements are to be patient and friendly. You don’t have to switch servers or commit to a regular schedule (for M+). It’s really a good solution that comes with many of the advantages (freedom) of pugging without many of the downsides.
Okay I am not saying there is no subjective line of ridiculousness to be drawn ever, but my point is: if someone got to a level of key with random people the chances he does not belong there is very, very low. And if they got there without knowing a mechanic then they do not belong there any less. Chance of being there on accident is just as low as the chance you went to challenger in league or whatever arbitrary rank above your skill, by accident. Which invalidates any flame as in “you are required to know X” you or others may have of your teammates or yourself. They are in all likelihood just as good or bad as you are thats what matters. Especially in high elo, because the higher the elo the lower the chances you are there by accident. If however timing it would not be the goal that has to be achieved, but finishing it would be, then one could just explain it to the people instead of getting mad and frustrated at them not knowing what they should know by anyones arbitrary standards.
Might be silly question from my end but did the people have timed +22 or the like on record for the same dungeon. When I were doing keys I were really selective of atleast 1-2 key lower timed of same dungeon/affixes, trying improve the odds of timing it.
Its different if playing with friends ofc but I dont have any who still play wow so its mostly puging for me and then the goal switch towards success instead “Having a laugh with friends”
Will not matter most people who do +20 - +25 keys are way overgeared so more drops wont matter. Only what can help if myth track gear drops from a certain level.
Just some comments that i observed while playing quite some dungeons overall:
If I play healer and check RIO of people I invite or groups I join, i have 1 out of 100 dungeons maybe one leaver. That one leave is probably due to DC or whatever. I almost had no failed runs in the range of 18-20 because the timer is so high, except rise.
If I play dps and need to invite people to somehow play the game because nobody applied as my RIO shows is not very high, the potential leavers are higher because the people play terrible. Failed mechanics, crap dps, bob tank, garbanzo healer - you name it. Those people have no business in an 18 key but yet they are there to ruins it.
the conclusion is that bad players are those who leave or you have 1 or more terrible players in your group. If those players are uncarriable then you will see people leave.
Leaves generally occur more on tyrannical i feel, because people get brick walled into a boss. I had a run where people were just unable to dodge tyrs frontal (lol) and after 3 attemps basically everyone called it quits. It was very obvious that we would get nowhere if we wipe 3 times to the easiest boss in the dungeon.
another reason why people leave untimed runs is not only RIO but also that the reward is bad as you said. In S1 you get your valor points regardless you timed it or not. Since S2 you only get 4 crests instead of 12, which is 1/3 and feels terrible.
I know already that I won’t get the item I want, but on top of that i get basically no gold, high rep costs and almost no crests. So if it is clear very early that it will be hard to time, surely people will leave and I cannot blame them honestly.
This is only true up to +20. Finished past timer still gives GV drop. Higher than +20 yeah, people only play for the score and there is no point to finished untimed dungeon.
Drop rates of M+ are abysmally high. In raid you have only 1 chance per week, in M+ you have unlimited farming possibility for Hero path gear. Which make M+ mandatory content for raiders, even if they don’t have any desire to do it. I played with some people, who don’t touch M+ in guild, and they become a dead weight to raid very fast in 2 weeks of a patch.
Now about prepositions:
M+ already gives a TON of gear compared to raids. Yes, getting one particular BiS trinket could be frustrating and could be solved with some kind of currency, with which you can buy desired piece after 30+ runs of the same dungeon or something like that. But in general I see no need of increasing drops.
Increasing gold drops could be dangerous also. If it will become higher, that any potential cost repairs, it will become source of raw gold farm, which brings well known problems of botting, inflation and so on.
From my experience this is not actually the case. The reason people leave keys (me included), is when there is a large skill discrepancy in the group and people expect to be “carried”. Depending on the mood, the concept of losing 10-20 minutes of my time so that another rude or entitled player also loses, is ok by me.
And to be clear:
No, I do not join a “+18 helping friend” group and expect the alt to perform. I know that in those groups I or the group is “carrying” in exchange for the key. Also never leaving “weekly no leavers” keys.
Only keys I consider leaving are keys that are “normal”, and there are 1-2 rude people that have opinions about everything and want to share them. If I join for a smooth run and I get 2 extra affixes from players I do not expect, then this is not worth it (even if it was timed).
To be fair, people expect runs in the range of 10-14 to be for learning tactics.
If you reached the range of 18-20 without learning all the dungeons, then it is your job to either read on them or atleast COMMUNICATE to the group what to expect.
What you describe is people that want BOTH to “learn the dungeons” AND group with people that know them already. But the problem is that if you get people that know everything, you will get carried and not learn the dungeons.
If you communicate that you want to learn the dungeons, and also choose to take people that have no experience doing them (or that are ok with helping you learn), then it will go way better.
while it is true that base gear can drop quite frequently, it certainly isn’t the case that you run around in high lvl gear without significant play time.
let’s say you get 1 loot every 3 dungeons, and you have what, 16 gear slots?
which means you need 48 dungeons on 17 or higher to get 1/6 hero gear. But of course you will not always receive an item for the slot that you have still open.
My guess is that you need closer to 100 dungeons to fill all slots with non BiS gear.
So actually the Vault is what makes gearing significantly faster, not the dungeons itself because you can choose more often than not a slot that you havent gear for yet.
besides you need 1200 crests to upgrade all your 1/6 gear to max which is 100 timed dungeons.
In the end this results in 50h pure dungeon running time which probably is closer to 100h played time.
now for some people 100h is nothing, for others 100h is really a lot of time.
Multiply this of course with any other character that you want to gear.
the vault may reduce the gearing time significantly if you just wait for vault day and only play 8h but it will increase the general time to gear while reducing the /played time.
TL:DR: I think think gearing is too fast, especially if you target farm certain slots. It is easy to increase your ilvl though.
I mean… Tanked a +12 with my low DK alt yesterday…
There was a ret, not dispelling anything, didn’t have it talented, no Interrupts AND
he only used AOE finisher the whole dungeon and was below me on every single target encounter and bosses…
People like this should also get a penalty for grieving other people with their ignorance, laziness and stupidity.
I just felt like talking about it because I do definitely like the game so far - just this part kinda bothered me. Probably because it is addictive too. So I kept playing it even if I didn’t really like that part that much.
