M+ players have to do raid and "be lucky"

Community General Discussion
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Title.

Why are raid trinkets so much more powerful than m+ trinkets even for 5 player content? There is a healer trinket that literally fulls the group from zero and there is another one doing 10% overall hps from it’s passive in m+. There isn’t a trinket slightly close to these in power that drops from m+ content.

We can’t even farm the raid to get these trinkets because it’s gated behind weekly lockout and there are so many other people rolling for these everytime they drop.

Could you please tune the power of the trinkets so m+ trinkets could actually be a little bit useful for m+ content at least? Thank you.

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Are you aimming for top 0.1% ? if not then there is no real “need” to have them.

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It varies by class and even spec. For Windwalker the strongest trinket comes from raid, while Delve trinkets and M+ trinkets take the second place, and they beat the rest available from the raid.

Same for a spec like Fire mage. From the top three trinkets the strongest is from M+, then comes a raid trinket, and then a Delve trinket.

There are outliers, like the house of cards being much more powerful than other trinkets for a selected few specs, but overall, atleast for DPS, there is a top trinket found from all three type of content, and they aren’t too far away from each other.

You can make an argument that it is harder to get your hands on the mythic version of M+ trinkets, but in the end the same applies for raid trinkets thanks to the weekly lockout and the competition there is for them.

For healers the single best trinket available was a M+ trinket in season one from Grim Batol that basically every healer wanted, while raid trinkets were nowhere near as powerful. I think it is fine for one to be strong in raids for a change.

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Its not fine. If you primarelly raid it is. If you primarelly do M+ it is not.

This stupid situation has existed for too long. And I dont like it.

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@OP: And?

I despise M+, but still “have to” farm the Mechagon bracers for the third time in 4 expansions, just as numerous specs have their BiS items for raiding (esp. jewelery and trinkets) in M+, regardless of whether they like M+ or not

Deal with it just like we have to, if you want to be as optimal as possible, then you have to be willing to invest the time and effort, even if it means leaving your comfort zone. Just be glad we´re not in TBC or Wrath where you “might” have had to spam dozens of hours of BGs to get your BiS Wand.

That said, if you´re not pushing for the .1% title it doesn´t really matter, anyway. And since you´re not already clearing at least 14s and 15s while the top players are already starting to push into 17s, it´s probably safe to assume that you aren’t.

And just tuning so everything is “closer” is a myth… because then it will just become a must have for the next spec, forcing them to run content they don’t want to.

The only feasible way to “solve” this is to completely deactivate all m+ jewelery and trinkets in Raids and vice versa, as well as anything with a cantrip or use effect such as for example legendaries or said bracers… which then in turn firmly screws over every single player that actually enjoys both. Which is probably the actual majority of those that engage with both. or it would have already been done years ago. So that´s a non starter.

TL;DR: the only realistic solution is the same one as it has been for 20 years: suck it up and either run content you don´t want to, or just live with not getting it because you´re not actually playing at a level where it would be regarded as a “must have” to begin with. :beers:

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make crafting provide full BiS for every specialization, and let any item that drops in Delves, M+, raids, vendors and the Great Vault be intermediate steps.

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Hmm, an intriguing idea… But I´m not so sure how one would expect it to function, can you maybe elaborate please?

For example, the missives we can use on armor (exception: engineering helms and bracers) always give a 50/50 stat distribution, which is objectively suboptimal for most specs and hilariously so for others (looking at my Haste-Junkie self in the mirror here)… Not so sure how we (or rather Blizzard) would go about solving that…

I mean, in theory they could introduce 2/1 missives, like Mssive of the Feverish Flare with 66% haste /33% mastery or the Flared Fever with 33% haste /66% mastery or something like that… but I fear that would just muddy the waters while still not really being competitive with something like the RiK Reverb Neck with a 4/1 spread of >4k haste and 1200 crit…

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It can be implemented many ways. One idea for example is:

  • Step 1: Every item can be disassembled like in BFA Scrap machine. Depending on its “path” (Explorer / Adventurer / Veteran / Champion / Hero / Mythic), one of the disassembled materials is a “5th” type of crest above Gilded. So for example Explorer items yield 1, Adventurer yield 2, Veteran yield 5, Champion 10, Hero 25, Mythic 50 of that new crest. These are random numbers to illustrate an example.
  • Step 2: The enchanter vendor sells a new Enchanted crystal for this new type of crest that makes the item level of any crafted item above Mythic. It doesn’t have to be a whole tier above Mythic, it can be just +3, so 681 assuming such a system existed in the current season. The cost of that crest should be something that allows like 1-2 crafted items per week for power-gamers, so they can become full BiS in 8 weeks or so, while the rest that dabble in difficult content can do it in 20 or 25 weeks (which is the length of a season)
  • Step 3: Implement set bonuses for crafted equipment:
    – Armor set bonus at 3, 6, 9 equipped crafted items. The set bonus from 3 items is the same as from 2 items from the current season, the set bonus from the 6 items is the same as the 4 items from the current season, and a new set bonus at all 9 slots (maybe convert one of the embelishments into that).
    – Jewelry set bonus at 3 and 5 equipped items of Neck, Rings and Trinkets from crafting. This should be a smaller bonus but still existing. Maybe 2 of the “weakest” or most “boring”/passive embelishments.
    – Trinkets allowed to be crafted from many professions with various effects that make them equal or better in power to those from trinkets in instanced content.
  • Step 4: Ditch Embelishments from Armor and Jewelry, keep them only on weapons.
  • Step 5 for PvP: Right now there is a new item available for Conquest that can be used on a tier-set item to increase its effective item level to 678 in PvP. Under my suggestion, since the crafted items already provide the maximum ilvl for any content, it would add an additional perk on the crafted item that makes it also provide +0.5% Primary Stats and +0.5% Stamina in PvP (+1% for 2H weapons)
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Add bullions each season and add the M+ items to the vendor.

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You can farm M+, you can’t for raids…

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Hilariously, this is already the obvious and incoming solution to the OP´s problem once 11.1.5. drops, though it does nothing (in it´s current form) for the raider that “needs” to run M+.

But on the other hand unless you´re giving out at least 5 boullions if not more every season and offering almost the entire lootpools from every form of content, incluuding delves, it´s at best just a bandaid. And people will still complain because they need another 5 for their offspec, and another 5 for their third spec… and at that point whats the point of even having drops in the first place if you can just buy everything off a vendor for facerolling LFR or +2s 5-6-7-10 times?

I personally like the idea of Crafted gear being superior to all drops more than effectively just giving away everything for free tbh… but that also presents issues, such as the market prices for even basic crafts skyrocketing due to everyone wanting to craft their 2 690 or whatever itemlev items every week…

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Not soon enough.

Just the trinkets and effect items are enough. The stat sticks you can craft.

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Why? The final push for the rating and /or the m+ title doesn´t even start until 3/4 of the season are already over, and IME raiders aren´t usually the the ones creating compaint-threads about having to do something other than raid, though i may have simply missed them.

Getting them after half the season, 3 months, still gives them 3 months to try to push into the keys that they so firmly believe a 10% increase in throughput will magically enable them to complete.

If you give them out much earlier than that, then for the gear driven players there´s no real reason to run the challenging content at all, just sit back and wait for the freebies to roll in after 8 weeks or so.

But that´s the point, you simply can’t currently craft a neck with 4k haste, or a ring with 4k mastery, and someone wanting to be optimal will therefore still have to run the other content for a chance to to get those (and possibly pray for vault luck), effectively making the whole thing a farce, because then they can also get the other items just as easily.

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M+ also has RNG. But you can spam it. That is the difference.

So to put it in other words: Lets assume you want a BiS trinket from M+. And you have to do that dungeon 20 times.

OK. You go and do the grind. And in a week at most you got your BiS trinket and you move on with your life.

On a raid however, the probability of dropping (and winning) the item in question the same or worse. Except that doing the raid 20 times means 20 weeks.

Who cares right? Well there is a difference. Especially with weapons and trinkets. I will use Fyrak 2-hander as an example: Those that got the weapon 1st week of the season got a HUGE power-up. In all forms of content.

But there are others (and I know a few) that got the weapon (and the huge power-up) 3 weeks before the season ended. When all content was cleared. All keys were done.

And that is why people want bullions. It is bad luck protection. And its better than any alternative.

I agree with it. 100%.

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I understand that and also agree with it.

But on the other hand, why should M+ players benefit fron being able to simply purchase what are effectively myth track items after half the season, while the Raider is still only ever guaranteed a hero track item for countless hours of engaging with content he may not enjoy… unless ofc he continues to spam m+ for the entire season in hopes of the slim chance of mythic vault drop of 1-2-3 out of 8 or 9 dozen items?

Not to mention that RNG is an evil mistress, spammable or not. I for example spammed Mecha:WS daily and who knows how often for at least 2 months last time it was in the pool, literally until I just couldn´t stand to run it anymore, and still never once saw the bracers as a drop OR in my vault. Last time I owned them was in BFA. And it annoyed me so much that I didn´t even want to log in on my mage anymore that season (SL S4), but rerolled to Warlock instead.

Because that is, for raiders, still EXACTLY the sort of “forced to run other content” system that M+ players as well as Blizzard themselves are supposedly trying to get away from, is it not?

I mean, When and how do raiders get their 100% guaranteed myth track BiS items from M+? Because currently, they don’t, and never have. Yet the M+ runners are still the ones complaining about having to run the raid for 1 let it be 2 hrs a week, while the raider still has to run 8 M+ 10s or higher, spending ca 4 hours, just to play the slot machine called Weekly Vault for a ~3% chance at seeing the item they want… statistically, you would need longer than a season lasts (34 weeks) to semi guarantee one Myth track BiS item in your vault (which is ignorant of how RNG percentages actually work, but the way they actually work is in fact even worse, as the calculation is logarithmic… the Probability of no success in N attempts = (0.97) to the power of N, which means even if you had infinite attempts the chance of success will never reach 100%…3 years of weekly vault openings still has a ~1% chance at never seeing the item ) :wink:

Now, If we remove myth track items entirely, from both raids and M+ vaults, then it becomes a more level playing field under the current system, and more easily attainable for both sides. Which is one of the primary reasons why I still feel that Myth track should not exist at all and Mythic raid drops should be cosmetic or maxed out hero track only :beers:

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you did not spam a dungeon for 2 months without getting the item you needed, unless by spamming you mean playing it maybe once or twice a week. Unless you’re the biggest statistical anomaly in loot history.

Mythic raiders have the chance at several myth track pieces a week from raid, obviously they have to roll on those items against other players, but on average, getting 1 item from mythic raid along with ALSO getting the mythic vault, you’re up on M+ players by a full item a week and that is if you’re unlucky.

I totally empathize with the “i don’t want to play this content, so why am i forced to” cause i am an M+ enjoyer that cannot for the life of me enjoy raiding and cannot allocate several hours thrice a week to sit in with 19 other people, of which at least 5 will be completely insufferable. I absolutely would LOVE a system that allowed the weekly vault tokens (the ones you buy sockets for, in case you don’t pick an item from the vault) could be used to buy a raid item from a vendor. I also wish this same system for raiders. Alternatively, they could literally just put a PVP-style set-bonus on dungeon trinkets, that only works in dungeons and gives like 3% versatility or something. Which in like 99% of cases would be plenty to incentivize only using dungeon trinkets in dungeons.

I think it’s about time that Blizzard starts viewing M+ like a seperate system to raids, just like PVP is completely self-contained at this point. M+ players have been calling for this for years and raiders don’t want to have to do m+ either. So why is M+ still considered a side-system to raid?

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Because other-wise almost nobody would bother with that stone age content, especially on mythic.
Every S tier trinket comes from the raid for me as well just like before.

Raid trinkets (both real and pseudo) rarely ever respect their own ilvls. This a returning issue with every raid tier since forever basically.

Just look at how many times they had to nerf Spymaster’s web in order to prevent it from being too powerful even against the S2 m+ trinkets. And then compare how many times they had nerfed any of the S1 m+ trinkets going into S2.

I actually wonder why do we have ilvl for these jewellery slots, if certain endgame modes will so blatantly disregard them anyway.

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You can believe it or not, it won´t change reality :wink:

Thing is I´ve generally always had pretty atrocious lootluck, esp. on my mage… 1487 Kael’thas kills (across the account ofc) for Al’ar, finally got it IIRC in 2022…Mathematically 1000 tries @1% dropchance means a chance of 0.00004317124 % of NOT getting it by then… and yet I still needed almost 500 more tries for it to finally drop, when the chance for failure was a hilariously low 0.00000323246898 % :rofl:. Or I was still wearing T4 shoulders and legs when I killed Kil Jaeden in Sunwell, despite having cleared both BT and Hyjal as well as SSC and the Eye multiple dozen times.

Or in the current season I not only do not have 4 set yet as the only one of our raidteam, but despite running 24 bountiful 11 delves I still only yesterday got a champion chest and shoulders to catalyze tomorrow, because there´s no way in hell there´s going to be Tier in either the raid or delve slots, not for the gnome, uh uh.

But hey, do I have half a dozen each ratfang toxins and amorphous relics and a neck with crit versa, hooray :confused: :joy:

That´s a large part of why I fully support systems like dinars and the catalyst… but somehow my mage still manages to get boned at least every second season :rofl:

My locks on the other hand? Both started 10+ itemlevels behind the mage, One has 648 and full 4 set after just 2 NHC clears without using a single catalyst charge, and got a heroic Rocket Screwdriver which is almost as good as the Bunkjunker mainhand on her first delver´s bounty. And the other just casually looted heroic shoulders to complete the main set mog in last week´s vault, after only running 2 8 delves just to have any vault at all and not even raiding yet.:man_facepalming:

Blizzard just hates gnomes, that´s the only explanation I have at this point :beers:

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You do have a point. It is extremely annoying on both sides of the ile.

The fact of the matter is that there is a 3% drop chance in M+ and weekly resets for raids for a reason. You want people to play for longer and that, while annoying, is extremely important.

Either way, this situation of M+ vs. Raid is a problem that has lasted for ages.

Its not an easy solution to be honest. All I know is that Myth track gear in M+ is still not implemented to prevent Raiders from accessing it. And that is mean.

Just out of curiosity, look up the birthday paradox. It sais that your math is incorrect.

With enough samples, eventually you reach 100% chance of looting something. Not <1%.

But in practice you are correct. It sucks to loot the item the 30th week of the patch.

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I agree that the situation sucks on both sides, and that´s basically my whole point, because it´c sonstantly “m+ can be farmed”, but that does not cancel out the fact that the items still have to drop, which can legitimately never happen in some cases, and even if it does it will never be Myth track except from teh vault. Wheras the dinar is a 100% guarantee of a myth track item, but only works one way. So while for raiders it´s bad luck protection, for M+ runners it´s effectively access to a top tier item without having to actually engage with the content.

Again, if we completely removed the myth track, it would be a different story entirely. :beers:

The birthday paradox is a related probability calculation, but it´s not the same thing and therefore does not cancel out / contradict the basic way a probability of a random event occuring with sample size (n) is calculated.

Simply because there are only a finite number of possible birthdays, which means that the chance can actually reach 100%, both in theory and in practice. Because no matter how low the ptobability (in this case 1/356), as soon as the 357th person is added at least one pair of birthdays has been matched by definition. Wheras with a drop chance, there is never, ever, a 100% guarantee, even with an infinite number of tries. Unless ofc it´s a guaranteed drop such as Mythic mounts when teh content is still current, but we all know that doesn´t apply to any gear item worth chasing in M+ or raids, every one of us has an item somewhere in their story that they spent a truly stupid amount of time trying to acquire and never actually got.

That´s exactly why alar was able to take so long despite the mathematical chance of me not having gotten it yet being a hilariously low 32 millionths of 1% by the time it finally dropped, , and why with approximately 80 runs in SL S4 I still never got the bracers, because the chance can never actually reach 100% and somebody (usually me) is inevitably going to get screwed by that simple truth :beers: