Hello everyone. I’m playing M+ for 2 month now combining it with raiding, which are the high-end activities in the game, so i want to discuss the rewards they’re giving and what problems i personally see with M+ reward system.
Important note: i’m will talk about the rewards, not M+ raiting.
So M+ dungeon is a timed challenge that requires everyone to play good and finish in time. If you complete in time - you’re getting a chance to get an item, 12 crests and some flightstones. Aaaand…if you don’t finish in time - you’re getting… almost the same (5 crests instead of 12)???
Most of the player know that finishing in time, especially the high keys (18+) requires us to get as many packs as we can at a time, and kill the bosses as efficient as we can.
But why should we do that, if we can just carefully pull 2-3 creeps, always reset our Bloodlust (when time expired) and wipe as much as we want and we’ll get almost the same rewards and progress my ILVL further?
Plus, failed keys still counts in the great vault, so a player can complete 8 dungeons in a week with overtime and still get items from the vault. I see no logic here.
In raids, we only have the one chance to get a loot from each boss in one week. But in M+, the’re no limit of how much loot you can take from there.
So what we have in result?
People are getting the super free high-ilvl loot from failed M+ dungeons wiping there for 10603 times. Plus, they can do it as much as they want. Compare it to situation with raids, when people need to do everything good and only then they get a ONE chance to get loot from boss.
When we’re trying to reg for raids / M+ dungeons, or somebody tries to reg to our party - there’s a pretty huge chance that player got it’s ILVL from mega free failed M+'s and you can only guess, how would he do in your party.
My main point is there’s pretty huge inflation of value of our items. Now, there’s no need to be a good player to get top tier items. And it brings us to a point where the most players have a pretty good items, but they’re getting it just by grinding game, not being good at it. And when it comes to choose, who to take to my raid or M+ group, i cannot be sure that this player’s ILVL at least somehow represents his skill.
nobody stays in a key failing 238947239847 times to get a 40% chance of loot they most likely don’t even need.
nobody does that. Maybe in season start if the dungeons are very difficult and you still want max vault slots.
you played the keys, spend lots of time and completed the keys.
If you would get absolutely nothing for a depleted key, people would even faster abandon keys that have a slight hiccup.
That’s why you don’t judge from ilvl but from RIO.
you mostly can see if someone was boosted, just depleted 500 keys to get high ilvl or if he actually can play somewhat decently. There are some people who are terrible that have high RIO, lots of successful keys and high ilvl. This is not due to the gearing system though, it is mainly because dungeons have low dps requirements and you can carry a third dps player even in 20s very easily.
Technically, if you raid mythic, you can get myth track items faster as you are limited by vault to get myth track items if you only do M+.
Don’t start with mimimi but Heroic raid. HC raid has been free lot since forever if you plug in your keyboard. The only hard part about HC in the last expacs was always to find enough people that own a keyboard.
Still the fastest way to gear up is if you do both, raid and M+.
Raids have the advantage that you can get certain gear that is much better than M+ (usually trinkets and weapons)
Of course i don’t mean hundreds of times, but let’s say 80 wipes in a single dungeon is already too much for me. You say that “nobody does that”, but i personally see it in my keys, people can easily spend 1+ hour grinding one dungeon, cause they know that they’re gonna be rewarded almost the same as if they complete in time. And there’s no chance they can get the same quality items anywhere else
Again you say “nobody does that”, but i personally see it when i play keys. Are we playing the same game?
I agree that DPS requirements are very low in keys. But speaking of RIO, i see the promlem here that you’re not the person who always manages the group for keystone. And there’s not much people who can correctly read RIO profile and choose players wisely. Most of them see high ILVL and invite this characters in their party.
Can’t agree with you. It’s now the third month from mythic Amirdrassil release and still we have just 206 guilds with 9/9M progress. Not much players, right? And look at average ILVL of characters trying to reg in a group. You think that much of them got their 480+ gear from mythic raiding? I personally don’t think so.
Now about “Don’t start with mimimi but Heroic raid”. I can agree, that first 3 bosses of Amirdrassil are pretty straightforward with mechanics. Buuut, when you go further, there’s usually pretty much wipes cause people just don’t understand boss mechanics (for example, they don’t soak on Smolderon or dispell themselves around people on Tindral or placing fire near roots of Fyrakk). So i totally cannot agree that HC raids are now free, even when it’s the 3rd month.
Funny part is that most of items from Heroic raid are “Hero” tier, means that you can get the same quality in level 15 keys. Plus, the vault gives us 467 ILVL gear for Heroic raid, when lvl 8 key doing the same. Doesn’t it looks weird? Most of the people who doing just the keys probably don’t even think about raiding to raise their ILVL cause it’s just not as effective as doing keys non-stop
What i’m trying to say is - M+ rewards system is totally broken. My proposals are:
Failed M+ dungeouns shouldn’t give us any items. We can get our 5 crests, so our time is not completely wasted.
Failed M+ dungeouns shouldn’t be counted for the great vault progress
I see that if those changes would be applied, then people will lost their motivation to reg into a key that they’re not sure about, because there will be almost no reward for completing a dungeon in overtime.
For those who want to tell me something like “Hey, i came to WoW to chill after work and i’m not interested in pushing myself to complete in time”. Mates, if you wanna chill after your work, you don’t go into a time-dependent competitive type of content where you “chill” can ruin others progress
You basically try to kill keypushing. Why would we even try a +20> when we do not get vault rewards for it when the run goes out of time? Do you want us to first smash 8 +20’s and then start playing?
But isn’t it right that you don’t get the rewards until you don’t complete your task?
You can’t get a mythic raid reward from vault until you kill the bosses, so why should you get them if you didn’t complete your M+ in time, which is the main target of this activity?
We are completing the task. Also when that takes an hour. Timing or not timing is only relevant for getting your key up or down and some less rewards from the dungeon itself.
As i understood, you consider failing to complete M+ dungeon in time still as a completion, and that’s the reason you should get your reward. I have two questions for you:
Why a time limit in M+ even exist if rewards are the same?
Imagine that time limit is removed from M+. Do you think that it’s fair that M+ players are getting the same quality items as Heroic/Mythic raiders?
It is an infinite scaling system. Your first challenge is to be able to kill everything in the dungeon. Beating the timer means you are doing it so well that you are up for a bigger challenge.
The timers are already very lenient at the moment, which is why people are doing reasonably high keys in comparison with previous season (gear is obvisouly also a factor with more secondaries).
But we are getting literally 1 Mythic track item, random from a big loot table, in the vault. That’s it. So we will never get the same rewards as a mythic raider.
Are you really saying my highest finished dungeon +26 should not count for the vault because we were not able to time it? Any idea how hard +26 tyrannical bosses are?
Back to your point “Your first challenge is to be able to kill everything in the dungeon”. Are you sure about that? How much real challenge do you get farther than +16 key when you get 3 active affixes? Only HP+Dmg of bosses/mobs are increasing. You can say that “you need to be more focused and consistent with your DPS, take damage from less sources and kick casts”, and you’ll be right. But again, if we delete the time requirement, it means that you can wipe as much times as you want. That removes “consistency and focus” factor pretty much, cause if you have infinite amount of tries, you don’t need to do everything good in every moment.
We’re having different approaches to main goal of M+'s. You say that we should just complete the dungeon and that’s already good, but i say that it should be done in time for us getting the rewards. So answer is “Yes, if you want to get the vault item then you should complete 1-8 keys which you’re confident with”.
Cause it sounds pretty bad if player is “pushing” high keys without completing a single in time, and still getting a huge reward for this.
Yes. 100% sure. Every extra level on the key gives an extra challenge to be able to even finish the dungeons. Infinite. Your run succeeded when you were able to finish the dungeon. We aren’t getting kicked out of the dungeon with a “time is up” message.
It is pretty bad having to grind nonsense keys to get your vault and after that being allowed to start actually playing. You ask for a ~4 hour time investment only for the vault with no fun included. And this “huge reward” you talk about is 1 item completely based on RNG per week. If you want to get your 16 slots covered by these items you need to be extremely lucky to be done in 4 months.
And people do not get a high key for nothing, they have timed high keys to get there.
The elephant in the room reagarding M+ gear (and talents/class balance too) is the fact that it can also be used in a Raid scenario.
So you have two competing methods of gearing, one is infinitely spamamable while the other is not.
So whatever you do with gear in M+, it will be of limited scope because of its effects on Raid progression. For good or bad, and vice versa as well. So you cant propose any solutions to that problem that would not bust the whole game.
The solution is right in-front of our eyes. Make M+ and Raid separate. Like they did with PvP.
And how much bosses are really DPS checking you? I counted just around 6-7 maximum. Increasing of DMG/HP without time limit means that you’re often just have to spend extra minutes to kill them. Here’s time limit steps in, requiring you to complete the dungeon in specifit timebox.
I’m not saying that the game should kick us. We just shouldn’t be rewarded that good for failing to complete in time. I think i explained, why it reasonably is the main challenge of M+'s.
If we’re talking about getting fun, then why you want to be rewarded with good items for this? Does this make sense to you? With that logic, we can go to our work and tell our boss "Hey, i’m not sure if i’ll do my work good, but you’ll pay me anyway, right?
It’s top tier item, that you can’t get anywhere besides semi-hardcore/hardcore raiding. Isn’t this pretty huge for having fun, like you say
Nothing restricts you to reg into others high level keys. I’m getting pretty much people that have ~450-460 ILVL and they’re trying to get into my +18
I think it will just separate people into pure raiders and pure key pushers, and it will do good for raiders. But for M+ runners, the situation will remain the same, except that M+ players wouldn’t be able to go raiding.
But i think your idea is still better than nothing, cause at current point, raiders are having no choice but to grind M+ themselves to be competitive in a raid in terms of ILVL
Lets just fully agree to disagree on every point you made
Your problem seem to be about +18’s while you try to punish everyone who is doing higher keys.
Because we went up in week 1 with 453 ilvl up to +19. But we needed to get that keylevel first. We timed keys to that level.
I’m not interested in pushing keys to higher than +20 cause it gives no benefits to my character and I see no challenge for myself to infinitely grind the same HP+DMG buffed dungeons without new mechanics/affixes added.
