To compensate for the burst potential of Mark of the Master Assassin, Blizzard have reduced the baseline burst of the Rogue. However, this really hurts us when we are not using this Legendary, which in PVE is most of the time. Even a spec like Subtlety, which is meant to be a high burst spec, is not that without this legendary. Burst is king in Shadowlands as it actively mitigates downtime in raids and dungeons. All the top specs in the game are high burst specs.
I think they should remove Mark of the Master Assassin from the game. It causes too many problems and ruins the baseline design of the Rogue. Remove it and buff the baseline burst of the Rogue.
And the burst damage outside of it is a joke because of it. It’s ironic. Blizzard cannot give us high baseline burst because of this legendary. If they did we would one-shot everything in PVP. So instead of removing the legendary they decide to nerf the baseline burst of the spec instead which completely ruins the gameplay without the legendary.
Subtlety should really be the Rogue equivalent of a Fire Mage. High burst windows every 1 min similar to combustion. As baseline. Not dependent on some stupid legendary.
MA is nerfed while we get nothing in return. A finger curls on the monkey’s paw.
Yea, sure, if we can get the baseline burst - that’d be great! But i kinda… don’t trust blizz with that. We either getting a crappy burst or an overtuned one at first which gets nerfed within two weeks into a crappy one because people are crying under wowhead posts on twitter.
At least MA makes torghast and open world somewhat fun.
Keep fighting the good fight tho! Maybe we’ll get a tuning miracle, that’d be neat.
Agree, because if you PVE and do high M+ keys or raiding you will be running finality 90% of the time. Sub rogue burst with finality is not very impressive and easily gets outshined by boomies, mages, monks and other classes. I have noticed the sub rogue are almost the opposite from a burst class in PVE at the moment. As an example: in M+ I do 5-6.5k dps most of the time depending on the dungeon. I’ve switched to Finality in M+ due to the way tanks pull in higher keys and that it plays better on bosses. However, I basically never go below 4k dps on any given fight and I rarely ever go above 8k or 10k dps on any given fight either. Of course there are exception, but this is the general theme. Instead sub rogues seem to be doing very consist damage. Whereas I see the dps variance among e.g. fire mages which are 2-45k depending on packs. To continue the example, firemage single target can vary roughly between 2k-12k if they burst or not… All the examples are referring to the DPS that you see after leaving combat from a given pack.
It’s weird how sub rogues have become a class with consist damage in PVE more than anything. Shadowdance is seen as our burst windows, however in PVE you will be pressing shadowdance almost as soon as it is off CD (making sure you have enough energy). It is not really much of a burst window since we spend most of our time inside of shadow dance anyway.
Don’t get me wrong I really enjoy how the class is played at the moment, but I find it very strange that sub rogue ST dmg is underwhelming to put it mildly. What makes sub rogues DPS decent in M+ is that it is consistent and not “spikey” as many with little experience would would argue.
Mark of the Master Assassin. The amount of burst with this Legendary should be the baseline amount of burst.
Shadow dance window being too frequent. Shadow dance should be a fixed 1 min burst CD. No CDR. We should be able to do massive amount of burst every 1 min and do very little damage outside of this window.
Outlaw is our sustained spec. Subtlety should be a burst spec.
true but generally the issue and balancing around MA is strictly in regards to PvP as a PVE legendary it is a very good addition in my opinion, because it offers a very different gameplay and stat priority.
I don’t agree that this is a bad thing. I think the CDR aspect is very fun to play with since it requires the player to think a bit to get his/her rotation on point. I therefore especially like the synergy with having 2 charges of shadowdance and the CDR.
Generally, I think it would be better if Blizzard can increase the burst potential with keeping shadowdance as it is by reducing the CD of shadowblades and buffing symbols of death (perhaps in combination with increasing the CD).
I agree with this in general. I like items that offers different gameplay. However, it should come at the cost of the baseline design of a spec. And I feel that MA diminishes Subtlety also in PVE because it reduces the baseline burst of the spec. Subtlety should always be one of the burstiest specs in the game no matter what legendary you use. And right now it isn’t unless you use MA.
The problem with having very frequent CDs is that it automatically reduces the burst per CD. Otherwise we would do way to much overall damage. So a spec with frequent CDs will typically have a more sustained damage profile. An exception is the current Fire Mage but that’s because it does 0 damage outside of combustion. I would love to see Subs damage profile be closer to the damage profile of a Fire Mage.
are there any other changes im not aware of?
so far i only know that ma makes only rogue abilitys to crit after 0.5
i dont get why everyone complain about rogue burst since its much weaker than most other classes.
ive seen tons of warrios/mages/druids 100-0 me in like 2 seconds, hunter/gayadins that 100-0 me in a 4 sec stunds, but i havnt seen a single rogue 100-0 me in a cheap shot and neither can i do that unless they have like 25k hp.
rogue can stun for over 10 sec and kill, but the burst is nowhere near the other classes.
Yes I mean I agree with that statement… But purely in regards to SD, I just prefer the way shadowdance is working right now and I wouldn’t want it any other way. I guess we disagree here . If they could keep SD the way it is and still improve our burst potential without MA I would be very happy.
May i ask!
I run outlaw with celerity and blade rush. Do you believe after the MA nerf its worth to craft it and play it with killing spree? I’m talking about pure PvE m+ mostly
I would assume so, because the MA nerf will only affect rogue PVE in necrotic wake and to some extent our trinkets, but the nerf is really not that big. People still use MA + killing spree outside of necrotic wake.
I know you mentioned pure PVE, but if you ever PVP then MA is very good to have. It is also very good in open world content like WQs and in Torghast.
I’ve said this since the beginning of the season
I hope Blizzard read this forum, because we are going to do it AGAIN with the venth ability.
REMOVE THE MASTER ASSASIN IN PVP KEEP THE ABILITY INTACT AND RESTORE ECHOING AS ORIGINAL, IS THE LEGENDARY THAT IS OVERPOWERED FOR 4 SECOND, NOT THE ROGUE ABILITY
Pls Blizz is easy to do. Pvp players should use the vanish legendary, not the MA
It’s a stupid legendary and blizz ruined this class. This slight nerf Croweley is talking about, is aimed at assa i think. It’s made so our DOTs can’t crit. Another wasted XPAC for rogues i guess…
You offer an interesting point of view. I had not considered this be a factor but you do bring a valid argument to the table.
I like playing with MA, however I can definitely tell that my burst capacity is slim to none outside of its active window. Need to think about this, but im leaning towards agreeing with you OP
Yeah I am in the same boat at the moment, but since I stopped using MA in mythic+ I don’t feel that attached to it anymore. However, I really do like the way it introduced an entirely new gameplay and stat priority for one and the same specc and I still enjoy playing with MA a lot.
really? Has this been confirmed on PTR? I just asumed poisons would be part of the rogue auto attacks and abilities :S
Exactly. I also like to play with MA. It’s fun. The problem is that it’s not fun to play without it. So the class is dependent on a specific item to be fun. Rogue should be a high burst class as baseline absolutely independent of items.
The problem with the Rogue in PVE is that we need to pick between Burst and Sustained damage. It’s a trade-off. While other classes such as druids and mages can have both. Their sustain damage is not diminished by having burst.
. If they could keep SD the way it is and still improve our burst potential without MA I would be very happy.