Mage vs every other caster in M+

Community General Discussion
221

That goes without a saying. It would not make sense to balance for HC-raids.

1 Like
222

it’s balanced for mythics now , top players and you’re unhappy with this way too , what’s the solution ? balance for LFR ?

223

42% I believe was the number. My point being the guy who made tier sets roughly equal t o eachother likely wasn’t communicating with those who balance classes.

224

Its ‘‘balanced’’ for Mythic-Raids. I cant speak for the top players in raid so not sure how unhappy they are there.

My expertiece is M+ and the problem is that M+ needs more balancing. Top- M+ players are unhappy because certain spec completely outclass others. Which leads to a rather stale M+ Meta.

So the solution would be to buff and nerf more for M+. There was for example zero reason to buff mage from a M+ POV.

Which is kinda sad since I am kinda sure more people play and watch M+ than raid.

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225

Possible, I would still argue why they let Ele be trash in M+

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226

i see your point, okay but we have this data for top %0,1
DPS Representation (icyveins/jordan)

  1. Evoker - 26.1%
  2. Havoc Demon Hunter - 25.1%
  3. Rogue - 10.8%
  4. Mage - 9.9%
  5. Warlock - 9.2%
  6. Hunter - 5%
  7. DPS Druid - 3.7%
  8. Retribution Paladin - 3.2%
  9. DPS Shaman - 2.7%
  10. DPS Warrior - 2.3%
  11. Shadow Priest - 0.9%
  12. Windwalker Monk - 0.7%
  13. DPS Death Knight - 0.4%
    (6 weeks into season)
    even with the buffs there’s so little difference between locks and mages so mage buff didn’t even push it to top 2 dps clases.
    i think the problem here is the lower-end classes/specs sucks. instead of nerfs to mages there should be buffs for those classes like fdk is at the bottom for a really long time .
227

See, this is just not true. Shadow priests have terrible representation but they’ve timed all 29’s and even a 30.

Is a DH stronger? Sure, and thats why people gravitate to it - and this is the important part that skews representation totally.

To just reduce it to some specs “suck” is so reductive because if you flip it round, a spec that can time a 30 can’t suck can it?

228

they did get a good buff tho. idk if they timed after it (probably) also a good player can time high keys with most classes but if we say ‘‘oh sp can do +29 so it doesn’t need adjustments’’ then that would be wrong because representation comes from performance in m+. do %20 of dps players really want to play dh or were they always dh mains ? top ele shaman has 2 +29 keys but that doesn’t mean they perform well

229

I never said demo-locks are not strong. But the difference here is Mages were atleast as strong in M+ and they got buffed, and now:

  1. [Augmentation Evoker] (S-Tier)
  2. [Fire Mage] (S-Tier)
  3. [Frost Mage] (S-Tier)
  4. [Havoc Demon Hunter] ( (S-Tier)
  5. [Outlaw Rogue] (A±Tier)
  6. [Demonology Warlock] (A±Tier)

Buffing an allready strong class was completely unneccessary and pushed them right back to the S- Tier, where they are most of the time since M+ exists. It annoys the frick out of me that its allways the same classes.

2 Likes
230

this annoys me too. i’m just saying they should buff others too not nerf mages . i’ve only been following tunings for 3 seasons now and demo was always really good and affli was the lowest. it’s sad

231

Thats not how you balance a game. WoW has 26 DPS specs.
You have 4 extreme outliners at the top (Aug, FrMage, FMage and Havoc) and just a few in the bottom tier. Allmost half of all specs (11) are in A-Tier. It is easier and better to nerf the extremes in top and buff the lower specs.

It would be stupid to buff 22 specs when most specs are fairly even or close.

Affliction will allmost never be good in M+, simple due to its design. Setting up multiple dots wont work in a game-mode where you want to burst things down instantly, unless Affli does a ridicules amount of dmg, which blizzard never gonna let happen, due to raid-balance.

So it will allmost allways be Demo or destro.

232

but if you nerf dhs to a tier-level people won’t play dhs because playing other classes will be better with utilities etc. i think demo would be in s tier if many people played it we’d see better performance. people prefer mage not just because utilities it also has a better design and experience in m+ than stationary demolock. you need to nerf mages dps to way lower than locks to make people stop playing mage all the time. that’s why i said removing utility from dps is the best way because if you give ret low dps it won’t be played, most players prefer high dps .if you nerf dhs that one will be the lowest etc.
we should be choosing with playstyles in mind not the performance logs imo

233

fun fact any low tier class can do dps. Its just these S tier and A tier classes has instant cast 1 mil dps in matter of 3 seconds, which is bad class balance.

The Barbie girl dev team has to care more going in to the next expack fix these classes down to be on par with the lowest speccs and make the mid be the same as the lowest once. Then try fix the classes in questions like actually start caring about class balance and how fun a dps class should be not just bloat them mish mash them and stop caring in mid expack.

I have high hopes for the Barbie girl dev team going in to the war with in if they don’t care this expack will show its toll on how boring the m+ roster will look carrying only DH Warlocks and mages and possible rogues and Evokers.

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234

Just quit discussing with this guy. Even this fact is never going to change his mind. The truth is that warlock and mage are basically equal with the sole exception of you playing in literally the top 200 players. Not even teams, players. And even there we’ve got 3 warlocks.

So unless all that matters to you is the MDI, in which case I suggest you re-evaluate why you even play this game and therefore why it matters to you, there is simply no problem here.

Why don’t we focus on classes like DK’s and WW’s? And SP’s? It was always clear they were brought for their absolutely insane utility last season, and with all the justified nerfs they have an AoE damage problem. Warriors could use some help too, but that situation isn’t too egregious.

It’s very clear that literally ANY class can get you into the top 0.5% despite the evokers and demon hunters popping off like crazy and taking up half the ladder between them. Why is there so much complaining about mages, which is taking up about 10% of the ladder space? 10% of DPS for 3 specs out of 26 is perfectly appropriate, but because there’s one comp that’s dominating the top 200 people are losing their heads.

You can’t argue with these people.

235

Good example why, for example, I don’t want to play elemental shaman, even I do like them. Why play ele, if it’s basically useless in high keys.
People here concentrate on something else :slight_smile: balance druid in pugs is also bad If the group isn’t coordinated and most people play pugs.

Yet, people here just concentrate on some data that one of warlocks is doing well and saying there is no problem. What about affliction though? Destro was unplayable for 4 weeks of season and only now is fine.
If two of mage specs would be C tier for 4 weeks of season, there would be so much crying and so much buffs withing a week.
Destro and affliction were bad whole previous season too, btw :slight_smile: they also can redesign affl/destro

Demo isn’t stationary lol, and you only talk about demo lock. Cool, 9.2% play demo, other specs were bad for a year.

Also, saying that good players all play DH is not true, you can also say that only good players play Aff, destro, elemental since for noobs it will be 0 damage. The actual truth, that even middle level person can pull off DH in mid-high keys, but they can’t pull off affliction, unless they are really good. So think.

236

Well what about it? It’s literally been singled out a dozen times in this thread alone as having major problems, and I joined the chorus. Yes, fix Affliction.

Let’s talk about S1 Frost and Fire. Especially Frost.

S1 Frost did less damage than S4 Shadowlands Frost - in real numbers. The DPS literally went down as you levelled up and even with full gear it actually did not recover. Its DPS was less than half of the 2nd lowest spec, and obviously it was terrible as well.

Blizzard spent around 25 weeks buffing frost until it finally reached a playable state, and then the overhaul came and made us OP, and then some nerfs came. Some of these buffs were over 60%. The most extreme buff was iirc Fire Bomb which was buffed by 1600% and yet still doesn’t find use.

So yes, I have tried playing a dog class and it was indeed mage. I’m so sick of people just forgetting this. Yes, mage can be bad. Mage has been bad many times. Mage is frequently one of the least played classes in the game (unlike in vanilla where it’s super popular). Like it’s just
 is it too good in the top less than 0.1% now? Yes - it’s in the meta. But it can be bad.

237

Look at the link posted above from icy veins.

What about elemental, what about destruction, what about SP
what about utility of all these as well?

Destro, affliction were bad a year or longer, elemental wasn’t that good last season too. I don’t know season 1, didn’t play much. One spec didn’t perform well for sometimes in 1.5 years of mages? Wow. And it’s lies btw, ice veins place Frost mage and Fire in B tier.
Ranged DPS Tier List

Based on 2,728 runs, ranging in difficulty from +16 to +27.

S-Tier:
Shadow Priest (185.95)
A-Tier:
Balance Druid (183.68)
B-Tier:
Fire Mage (179.55)
Destruction Warlock (178.28)
Frost Mage (177.54)
C-Tier:
Beast Mastery Hunter (176.40)
Marksmanship Hunter (175.65)
Devastation Evoker (175.16)
D-Tier:
Elemental Shaman (172.02)
Demonology Warlock (170.06)
Arcane Mage (166.61)
F-Tier:
Affliction Warlock (20.31)

238

Literally the first thing I posted in this thread was to focus on buffing specs that weren’t viable and doing something about Aug and DH taking up half of the DPS slots between them instead of taking out your rage on a class whose 3 specs total to 10% of DPS slots and which is equal in total to warlock anyway.

So yes, please go ahead. Make a thread about that instead of this thing, I beg you.

239

What rage? Just talking about inbalance of classes, I don’t rage at anything and this thread is about casters :slight_smile:
There are plenty of threads about DH and Aug

240

Who said anything about 1.5 years? I said mages were diabolical in S1 Dragonflight, and they were.

But even ignoring that, why do you all running around saying a now self-professed D-tier to B-tier class is always Blizzard’s favourite? Like what are we doing here?

Lmao come on man.