Mage vs every other caster in M+

[Saikyoo-venoxis]

@Breaths-twisting-nether

but they all have different things

oh boy here we go…

@Breaths-twisting-nether

mages dont heave self heal like others

Self-healing in M+ rarely matter at all if its not passively done or heal a huge amount at once. Especially on higher keys its more important to survive huge dmg, spamming my heal rarely saves, a DR will be allways better.

Does selfheal sometimes make a difference? Yes… but for classes that have to cast their Selfheal they trade a lot of momentum or dmg for that.

And guess what, Mage have greater invis (60% DR on 2 min CD), A low CD Absorb with barrier for the whole group, an immunity or 70% DR, A health reset with Alter time (on a 1 min CD), a 20% DR with Mirror Images… And ofc a spec specific Deff, with either cauterize or double Iceblock (arcanes magic DR with barrier is also great)

Do you even realize how much deff that is? And yes they can have all this without a proiblem. If mages know what they are doing they cant die.

And mages where supposed to be squishy…

Yet we dont even have talked about the mobility mages have which also adds a lot of safety to them.

@Breaths-twisting-nether

they dont have healthstones

And?

They have Spellsteal (the strongest purge ingame), Decurse, BL, Int-buff, and a barrier for the whole party. + multiple roots, mass CC to interupt spell-casting in Dragon Breath and blastwave → Which is also a insane knockback + slow… oh yeah the amount of slows they have + poly.

Mage has an insane toolkit for M+

@Breaths-twisting-nether

passive health regen, passive barriers

look above… but technically there are talents like Tempest barrier that enhance your deffs with more passive healing and shielding (due to points you dont skill most of them tho)

@Breaths-twisting-nether

pi

look above (BL + Int-buff says hi)

@Breaths-twisting-nether

interrupt is weak

The interupt is the standart interupt CD for Range-classes. Funny enough they can even reduce the CD by 4 seconds + it has a long range.

Since I guess melee interupts have shorter CD, I guess I will give you that?

@Breaths-twisting-nether

you use mass invis and mass barrier to support the idea of mages having too many but you cant pick them together so its just an option

Mass barrier > Mass invis in most situations

---

Srsly, you have to be delusional to not see how strong the mage kit is especially with the amount of damage they deal.

[Ayellin-kazzak (Ayellin)]

@Dampdk-frostmane

It’s that they do great aoe while blasting into one mob meaning that the dangerous mobs die faster making the pulls safer.

Not the case for Frost and both Frost and Fire do the highest keys.

@Breaths-twisting-nether

if the group is DH tank Rdruid healer mage aug and havoc then no group doesn’t benefit much from mages.

Aug gives more damage to others because of the int buff and the resto does more damage and heals more because of the int buff.
Just int buff alone does quite a bit here and that is on top of the ability to stay alive that mage has and the utility.
And the damage is more then enough and is buffed by the Dh and the Aug in this group.

[Saikyoo-venoxis]

@Breaths-twisting-nether

if the group is DH tank Rdruid healer mage aug and havoc then no group doesn’t benefit much from mages.

The healer, the Aug and the mage get stats from Int-buff.

The whole group benefits from BL.

And if I am not completely mistaken, the int-buff that the Aug gets increases Ebon Might, which ofc buffs the damage (+ tankiness and healing for tank and healer) of the whole group even more.

So yes it is a big deal for the whole group.

[Mistjo-argent-dawn]

And the demon hunter brings 5% magic damage buff, so it is all complementing each other.

[Dampdk-frostmane]

@Ayellin-kazzak

Not the case for Frost and both Frost and Fire do the highest keys.

Ok? I was talking about fire tho not mages as a whole. Did not say frost was weak

[Ayellin-kazzak (Ayellin)]

@Dampdk-frostmane

Did not say frost was weak

Have to assume you do with the mage apologetics going on in this thread.
Mage is strong and with the buffs they got it became even stronger.

[Falsejaina-ragnaros]

@Ayellin-kazzak

Aug gives more damage to others because of the int buff and the resto does more damage and heals more because of the int buff.

People obviously close eyes here or they truly don’t understand how OP buff 5% intellect is.

They literally compare int buff with healthstones.

[Ishayo-earthshaker]

@Dampdk-frostmane

Ok? I was talking about fire tho not mages as a whole. Did not say frost was weak

@Ayellin-kazzak

Have to assume you do with the mage apologetics going on in this thread.

Did anybody? I certainly didn’t say Frost is weak. I said stop calling for nerfs all over the place when the actual complaint is that Affliction or Ele etc. doesn’t work at all. I said all 3 mage specs add up to the same as all 3 warlock specs and that this makes mages one of the best designs currently because they’ve actually managed to balance 3 specs with one another, more or less.

At no point did I suggest that everything was fine.

@Falsejaina-ragnaros

They literally compare int buff with healthstones.

CR is pretty good too, you know.

[Ayellin-kazzak (Ayellin)]

@Ishayo-earthshaker

Did anybody?

You did

@Ishayo-earthshaker

At no point did I suggest that everything was fine.

Then stop commenting here because you are the one disagreeing and saying it is fine.

@Ishayo-earthshaker

I said all 3 mage specs add up to the same as all 3 warlock specs and that this makes mages one of the best designs currently because they’ve actually managed to balance 3 specs with one another

I better not be seeing you on the forums here complaining if 2 or 3 specs from other classes are strong as you shall remember you are saying that is a show of good balance.

i better not hear you talk about other specs being good in M+ or PvP if they are bad in raid and therefore should not be buffed.
I better not hear you talk about other specs being good in raid therefore they do not need a buff in PVP or M+ if they are weak in those areas.
Because you are here saying that does not matter.

[Ishayo-earthshaker]

@Ayellin-kazzak

You did

No I didn’t. I said they’re not always strong, and I said they aren’t “Blizzard’s favourite children” or whatever it was. I did say they were weak in S1. But not now, certainly no.

Reading comprehension is very important.

@Ayellin-kazzak

Then stop commenting here because you are the one disagreeing and saying it is fine.

I said the state of mage is fine, I didn’t say the state of affli is fine.

Reading comprehension is important.

@Ayellin-kazzak

I better not be seeing you on the forums here complaining if 2 or 3 specs from other classes are strong as you shall remember you are saying that is a show of good balance.

I’ve already said that the two specs being 50% representation between them are too strong. Oh no I did it, woe is me.

Reading comprehension is important.

@Ayellin-kazzak

i better not hear you talk about other specs being good in M+ or PvP if they are bad in raid and therefore should not be buffed.

I never said Affli or SP for example should not be buffed. In fact I said they should be.

Reading comprehension is important.

[Saikyoo-venoxis]

@Ayellin-kazzak

Then stop commenting here because you are the one disagreeing and saying it is fine.

Imagine someone saying an S-Tier class is fine and dont need a nerf.

Those people are delusional.

@Ishayo-earthshaker

and I said they aren’t “Blizzard’s favourite children” or whatever it was. I did say they were weak in S1. But not now, certainly no.

Buhu, my class is not A-S Tier in every content that matters, for 1/6 of the time it exists in wow…

While it gets more tunning than most of the other classes, and buffs as soon its not atleast A-Tier :<

Dude, stop your delusions and see that there is a reason Mages are incredibly strong for most of the time while other specs have to pray to blizzard to see the S Tier in 6 years once or not being in C-Tier for most content.

[Ishayo-earthshaker]

@Saikyoo-venoxis

Buhu, my class is not A-S Tier in every content that matters, for 1/6 of the time it exists in wow…

I’m not crying about it, I was merely telling you to stop spreading this BS because it’s not constructive and it might actually have consequences.

@Saikyoo-venoxis

Dude, stop your delusions and see that there is a reason Mages are incredibly strong for most of the time while other specs have to pray to blizzard to see the S Tier in 6 years once or not being in C-Tier for most content.

I’m not the one who’s deluded :]

[Breaths-twisting-nether]

@Saikyoo-venoxis

Srsly, you have to be delusional to not see how strong the mage kit is especially with the amount of damage they deal.

@Saikyoo-venoxis

Mass barrier > Mass invis in most situations

yes and that’s why you can’t keep saying mage has both . mage has only one of them.

@Saikyoo-venoxis

The interupt is the standart interupt CD for Range-classes. Funny enough they can even reduce the CD by 4 seconds + it has a long range.

isn’t shaman’s interrupt shorter ? im not sure

@Saikyoo-venoxis

They have Spellsteal (the strongest purge ingame), Decurse, BL, Int-buff, and a barrier for the whole party

decurse is useless most of the time , BL is not mage specific , barrier for the whole party is only available once per fight usually.

@Saikyoo-venoxis

multiple roots, mass CC to interupt spell-casting in Dragon Breath and blastwave → Which is also a insane knockback + slow… oh yeah the amount of slows they have + poly.

the thing is you don’t get to use all of them in your rotation. shamans have some of these too if they pick the talents .

@Saikyoo-venoxis

look above (BL + Int-buff says hi)

BL isn’t mage specific , devoker and shamans have it too. PI on the other hand is priest specific .

@Saikyoo-venoxis

And guess what, Mage have greater invis (60% DR on 2 min CD), A low CD Absorb with barrier for the whole group, an immunity or 70% DR, A health reset with Alter time (on a 1 min CD), a 20% DR with Mirror Images… And ofc a spec specific Deff, with either cauterize or double Iceblock (arcanes magic DR with barrier is also great)

again, you’re using mass invis & mass barrier as two different things that one mage can use in same rotation.
warlocks have
-aoe stun
-healthstone
-soulstone
-multiple curses which makes great difference
-gateway
-fear & banish

passive talents:
%10 stamina
soul leech buffs
insane armor buff
multiple DR talents that always active
passive heals

but yeah mages having one okayish barrier every 2 mins is insane

[Saikyoo-venoxis]

@Ishayo-earthshaker

I’m not crying about it, I was merely telling you to stop spreading this BS because it’s not constructive and it might actually have consequences.

The consquences of mages not being S Tier for most of the addon? The consequences of seeing other classes having a chance to perform? The consequences not seeing the same classes at the top every addon?`

Damn, thats consequences I am willing to take.

@Ishayo-earthshaker

I’m not the one who’s deluded :]

Since you are saying mages are fine, you are extremely deluded

[Ayellin-kazzak (Ayellin)]

@Ishayo-earthshaker

Reading comprehension is very important.

yes it is you should learn to read that is for damn sure.

Mage Is EXTREMELY strong this is a fact you are not getting away from.
This is the second season in a row it is extremely strong this is a fact you are not getting away from.

There was ZERO need to buff 2 out of the 3 mage specs as it was already so strong that it was used in the highest keys in M+
Again a FACT not opinion based objective fact both Fire and Frost was used in the highest keys before the announcements of the buffs even.

You are delusional if you keep defending mage here

[Ishayo-earthshaker]

@Saikyoo-venoxis

The consquences of mages not being S Tier for most of the addon? The consequences of seeing other classes having a chance to perform? The consequences not seeing the same classes at the top every addon?`

The consequence of nerfing things that actually work fine out of pure envy instead of focusing their attention on your own problems.

---

Literally in PvP right now:
2v2: Second from bottom.
3v3: Second from bottom.
RBG: Actually bottom.
Solo: Second from bottom.

This has been the case for at least 3 expansions now. And I said not a peep until I get calls for nerfs.

But obviously mages are permanently OP. PERMANENTLY.

@Ayellin-kazzak

yes it is you should learn to read that is for damn sure.

I’m not the one who’s failing to understand what the other person is saying.

I’m also not saying mages aren’t strong, however I do take issue with the notion of a warlock coming in telling me my class should be nerfed because theirs is so much weaker when the reality is that their representation is literally identical at all except 28+, and way ahead in raids and PvP.

@Ayellin-kazzak

There was ZERO need to buff 2 out of the 3 mage specs as it was already so strong that it was used in the highest keys in M+

Because they were bottom in raids and PvP. That was the reason.

[Falsejaina-ragnaros]

CR that is casted three times longer than other specs have. And everyone can have Cr with engi, can I have int buff with engi please

You saying mages were weak in S1, that I proved wrong few posts above

[Ishayo-earthshaker]

@Falsejaina-ragnaros

CR that is casted three times longer than other specs have.

It’s 50% longer. Cry me a river.

@Falsejaina-ragnaros

You saying mages were weak in S1, that I proved wrong few posts above

No you didn’t. At all. They were C and D tier by the end and much, much weaker in the beginning.

[Falsejaina-ragnaros]

You ignored the fact that anyone can have CR with engineering, but okay. Warlocks have many problems, Kalamazi have a good video on it. You know that you need to resummon your pets if you die? That long CR does matter in higher keys, it’s hard to cast it.

Anyways:

DF season 1

Ranged DPS Tier List

Based on 2,728 runs, ranging in difficulty from +16 to +27.

• S-Tier:
  • Shadow Priest (185.95)
• A-Tier:
  • Balance Druid (183.68)
• B-Tier:
  • Fire Mage (179.55)
  • Destruction Warlock (178.28)
  • Frost Mage (177.54)
• C-Tier:
  • Beast Mastery Hunter (176.40)
  • Marksmanship Hunter (175.65)
  • Devastation Evoker (175.16)
• D-Tier:
  • Elemental Shaman (172.02)
  • Demonology Warlock (170.06)
  • Arcane Mage (166.61)
• F-Tier:
  • Affliction Warlock (20.31)

Information from icy veins.
In raider Io, the highest keys are don’t with mage as well in season 1

Only bad mages think they are not OP, like, the ones that don’t even know what their toolkit does in m+

[Ayellin-kazzak (Ayellin)]

@Ishayo-earthshaker

Because they were bottom in raids and PvP.

They where not they where low in Raids but not the actual bottom and the buffs was if we had ignored all the other buffs and nerfs was enough to push them to 6 7 and 8 damage in the raid.
The NORMAL way blizzard would do this is to buff ONE of the specs this would be the case for EVERY single other class in the game in this situation.

@Ishayo-earthshaker

I’m not the one who’s failing to understand what the other person is saying.

You are literally failing to do so.

@Ishayo-earthshaker

I’m also not saying mages aren’t strong

Congratulations you have evolved from the start of here to now to understand that mage is actually strong your prize is nothing.

@Ishayo-earthshaker

and way ahead in raids

It is not way ahead in raids the difference between top specs are around 10k dps on the 90th percentile and Demo is a better PI target by a lot and because of the ranking we are looking at a situation where around 6-9k of this can be explained using PI alone on one and not on the other.