I’ve always thought of the food table being more like lock cookies (and cookies really are a huge deal, especially if you have a squishy class or two in your group).
I think a lot of people don’t understand how good mage survivability is because it isn’t all as intuitive as ‘use a defensive’, Alter Time is amazing, but if you don’t use it before you start taking damage, it makes things worse instead of better.
Cookies are a combat utility, mage table is not. Cookies are to warlocks with mass barrier is to mage.
Well, if you’re going to pick an argument when I’m supporting your point, I’ll go back to only responding if I disagree with you 
It honestly appeared as if you didn’t 
In any case, I think calling mages OP in M+ because of utility, as the OP does, is a bit much. Fire is too good because of its synergy with evoker. If you nerf evokers, mages will pretty much vanish into thin air 
Yeah, there are a couple of places like the tree boss where mage is absurd. Sure. But on the other hand we also have bosses where a disease dispel is hugely powerful and darn near removes a huge source of incoming damage. Idk man, I really do think it’s a bit much.
Except it heals the mob, and you can only use it on humanoids.
Shame frost is at best mid-tier.
It is for some cases, but it requires pre-planning and most of those “defensive” buttons are either has very long CD or very short duration. Mage survivability skills are very good for big predictable burst damage, but very bad for rot damage.
In raid it is the Best in M+ having done 31 key level the highest keys done in the GAME is done by frost mage.
Cute you think those are long cooldowns.
You should not play several other classes if you think those are long cooldowns or short durations.
Rot damage is Very rare in this game these days and your healer can deal with it for the most part anyway just passively healing.
It is the big bursts that is hard to heal and annoying to deal with.
Tier lists say otherwise. Also best in raids, what are you smoking? It’s middle of the pack (mythic, 90%), worst of the mage specs.
Block 4 mins cooldown is quite long. Greater Invis 3s duration is short. Don’t you agree?
Rot/Strong dots are far from rare. (Waycrest 1st boss, AD last boss, Everbloom last boss, etc…)
It’s literally in the bottom third. Before the recent patch it was dead last.
There are currently two massively problematic specs in this game: Augmentation Evoker and Havoc Demon Hunter. Fire will be nerfed automatically if you take Augmentation down, and it doesn’t need a nerf in PvP anyway.
Augmentation outshines Devastation in every way in all 3 modes of play, removing Devastation from play completely, and Demon Hunters are also bonkers in all modes of play.
Then we’ve got some balance issues either in raids, or M+, or PvP, but not in them all simultaneously. This requires a more delicate hand. Let’s focus on these absurdities first, then we can focus on the specs that are so bad they pretty much can’t be played, and finally we can focus on the minor adjustments such as demo lock vs arcane mage for example. I’d seriously categorise that as a least concern.
Yeah, getting carried as holy priest in pugs with randoms. You can go check all my runs if you want, this forum is hilarious. I’m looking for a team for my healer tho
Your logs are literally grey when toggled by ilvl, so you are not here to speak, BM hunter
Yeah that’s true, another weird one with Ret, very good in M+, extremely bad in Raid, I bet they pretty much perform equal to Windwalker in both Raid and M+ atm, even though I havent really looked at the stats after the buffs, it’s just a guess.
Seems to be a problem with some specs that perform really good in one area but are very bad in another, specially with Classes that only have one dps spec (pala/monk for example) they need to find a way to fix that somehow, at least a little bit, I personally think Classes with just one dps spec should never be bottom at anything.
But it is true, Mages and Rogues seem to always do well, and get a lot of love from Blizz compared to some other Classes.
Do not be this bad at this Arcane was middle of the pack and with the buff is the 6th highest in Mythic difficulty and top by a big margin in heroic on logs.
You are talking about fire and frost 2 specs that was used before the buffs to them already in the highest keys in mythic +. Now you can try to argue against this but this is just facts.
Both fire and Frost had done 30s before the patch and there was a 100% rate of mages in 30s before the patch.
Before the buffs in mythic + mage was the 3rd spec you are right on this it was the spec that you could choose not to use for those highest keys however with the buffs this is not the case anymore now you are more likely to remove either Havoc demon hunter or Augmentation Evoker over the Mage.
Aug is not there for the Mage fyi it is for the healer to survive things.
Aug doing good enough damage is just on top of that.
Fire is 15/26 Frost is 19/26 these are going to go further up as time goes on we know this because there is not enough logs yet to actually show the real change and as we can only use 1 week here yet we have a lot of Christmas stuff going on so we will not have what we should have of logs in a normal time period.
And the reason we can know they are going to go up is basic math if you added the amount of damage and added the % of buff the damage is equal to around 9 and 10 on the lists before the buffs and that is with the other buffs that came in.
For M+ no because one of the reasons you take a mage is because of how tanky mage is compared to other specs.
Damage done is not what hinders keys from going up it is being able to survive things.
No, you take fire mage with aug for their damage profile and cooldown sync mainly. You’re totally wrong. Aug gives enough survivability on its own. Mage is actually a squishy spec, because it has almost 0 passive survivability.
Best way to balance this game as of now is to delete aug after dragonflight is over and make a tank spec out of it tbh.
1min shorter then Bubble and you can make it 3.5min cooldown.
Greater invis 3seconds is short but for what you use it for you do not need it to be longer.
Do you understand how warcraftlogs work? do you understand WHEN the patch hit?
because you simply can not use the 2 week one yet it has not been 2 weeks from when the patch hit that buffed mage.
You need to use 1week ok?
On the 90th percentile arcane is 7th on warcraftlogs on mythic on the total list over all percentages it is 6th.
it is top in HEROIC i did not know i had to caps this for you to read it but ok you should be able to understand this now.
It is top by quite a bit of damage.
1stboss waycrest you mean the sisters it is not that big of a deal compared to how it was in BFA. AD last boss it is not the DOT that is the issue it is the BIG damage hit that is the problem there with the overlap of that and the one where you spawn the mob, everbloom last boss it is the big one hit that is dangerous.
But the fact of the matter is that Mage has tools for everyone of these as is proven by the Fact that the VERY highest keys are done with Mage in the group.
Guess you disagree with Yoda who has done 31 you disagree with Elesmere who has done 30s on this patch then you should ask them.
SURE it is that is why it is used OVER higher damage specs in the HIGHEST content in the world.
Stop lying to yourself.
If you can play arcane in a raid you deserve to be number one. If you have ever played that pile of bleep you will know what I mean. It is absolutely bonkers. Rocket science and middle office finance performance review and risk analysis pales in comparison to that thing. Trust me, I know.
Mmm-hm.
You mean Exodia? Yeah, that was broken. Doesn’t mean anything now though - Exodia is dead, and good riddance.
Just because there are mages doing extremely high keys doesn’t mean mages on the whole are OP. You are not doing 30’s. You are probably not even near 30’s. When you look at 25 and up mages occupy a pretty healthy space of about 2-3% representation for each of the three specs. This is literally perfect, so don’t mess with it, alright?
I know that, but mages synergise particularly well with it, so once you have one, you’ll pick the mage. If it wasn’t necessary to have it, the mage would be far less useful.
The percentages they were buffed by reflects what is written on it. I doubt it’ll move much from here. And I don’t have a problem with where it is anyway.
Mage is not tanky at all. Mage is seriously not tanky. Evasive, yes - tanky, absolutely not in a million years. Either you don’t know how mages work or you don’t know what tanky means, but it’s gotta be one of the two.
I actually love the idea of a support spec, and the game used to have a metric ton of them back in the early days. I’d flip this on its head: The reason why Augmentation is so popular is that it’s basicall a 4th role and it’s the only spec in the game that has this role. This is a problem.
Spread the gifts around.
It has good cooldown sync with pulls and augvoker, so it’s not lower consistent damage in M+.
It’s squishy, because all the defensives of a mage are active abilities. Outside of that you are extremely vulnerable
The amount of mental gymnastics the mages in this thread do, to try to justify their broken class is hilarious.
You are Blizzards fav. child since WoW exist.
Remove Infusion remove shadow crash remove the dev team and hire people that care. make infusion in to hero instead.
Remove VT SP
make Mind blast spread VT To all nearby targets
Make Shadow word death Spread SWPain to all nearby targets
Add Doors of shadow with 2 charges and instant cast gives you Bubble and movement speed
make mass dispel dispel anything also affixes.
Give priest Hero and add Dispersion to priest talent side and also silence and Psychic horror.
make dark ascension instant cast and make mind bender a permanent pet bom i fixed priest.
Remove mind games make mind blast shorter CD instead on the priest side talent when you mind flay. Also make so instant cast mind blast can be cast during mind flay.
Make so you can cast while moving when Dark ascension is active.
make devouring plague look like cascade when you got more adds on the pull that it spreads to nearby targets.
Add back living shadow activates during an instant shadow word death and mind blast like season 4 shadowlands.
I hope they start careing again. Am tired of infusion having to copy paste name macro all the time.
I literally stop caring about it and just take the talent and cast it on my self.
no they can not. random forum people have no clue and insulting people, what a surprise.
imp can only dispel magic afflicted is everything but magic.
was probably already said in this thread already but thread is too long already to notice