Mages are apparently Fine

Discussing a dead game… love it :joy:

Oh no, there’s a class that warri can’t just zugzug with 100% uptime on it and let dampening win the game for him. Needs to get nerfed asap :slight_smile:


Crazy how the conversation is intantly redirected on warrior being the problem and the only class countered by a mage.

Seems like basicly every class is unplayable into a mage. Every caster gets gapped and does not stand a chance into a semi decent mage in every aspect.

Melees are just doomed to lose and arguably only decent spec to fight a mage is a marksman or maybe a rogue.

The issue is mage qs with a rogue 99% of the time so gl playing MM into that.


If a warrior can’t have good uptime what hope do the rest of the melee have…

even feral struggle to reach a arcane mage, cuz he can blink maim stun, so yeah its not a only warrior issue :smiley:

Warrior mains can’t be happy if they can’t smash literally everything. I get told by warrior mains that’s it’s just a lock counter and having a counter class is just normal. But warrior having a counter? NOOOO NREF PLX REEEE CAN’T SMASH BUFF ME NOW RAAAHHH


I get you have a personal vendetta vs warrior as a warlock but it’s not just warriors that might as well just afk vs mages.
It’s every melee lol

I would lie if i denied that but that’s not even what it’s about. Imagine allmighty melees have ONE counter and they proceed to cry big tears about it and demand nerfs. That’s just giga cringe.

I made it to the second line before the irony became too palpable to continue. :rofl:

tbf everything is a lock counter when its made the worst dps in the game :rofl:

Thats not entierly true, i get that most people think warriors can do whatever they want but i dont think anyone actually played warrior to see what the struggles are, most of the games theres some abusing root mechanics on charge and just perma slow, most of the dmg is pretty meaningless until damp when sharpen gets giga insane. Theres definetly a difference between doing w/e u want and it not having any impact in contrast to a mage spamm ccing ur entire team and also destroying ur hp bar if u dont watch out.

A mage free casting is far more dangerous than a warrior zuging a target, so the issue becomes, go mage or lose, go mage and lose because u cant hit him. In the past u would go mage to stop cc, sure ur uptime wouldnt be anything insane but it would be decent in trying to keep mage in check from obliterating ur entire team, even if u go mage nowadays u stop next to nothing while doing negative dmg.

Feels like a eat the cake and have it aswell scenario.

I also dont get the warrior vendetta, most people here play shuffle, did anyone check ladder? I mean warrior isnt a good spec for shuffle, only at low ratings, theres a reason the warrior cutoff is much lower than all other specs the same were true in s1 when warrior was S tier, it doesnt have the same impact and game winning potential to be good in shuffle, a good mage can solo carry games same with rogue and other specs a warrior will realistically never carry a game, its just a dmg bot.

Im not alone thinking this, its pretty widespread in the topend community that warrior lacks “carry potential”, it doesnt hence, its never gonna be insane in shuffle unless it 1 shots someone or chucks a big portion of health like unhinged would sometimes do before everything was nerfed into the ground and went to a bleed build just in time for augvokers to become meta that dispell ur bleeds.

Cataclysm had the best PvP.

WoD the best gearing system.

I think, at least.

I mean to be serious for a moment, I’ll happily admit that I haven’t engaged with Dragonflight beyond the first season, so at this point I have no authority to speak on game balance. What I will say though, is to be careful when using Shuffle as any sort of meaningful metric for any argument, not just numbers.

Arms wasn’t strong in Shadowlands for its damage (although Condemn and Spear were both hearty keks), it was dominant because of its overwhelmingly oppressive support toolkit combined with just how hard it was to kill, look at S1 Ret/Arms/X for example where the Warrior only existed to Mortal Strike and keep the Paladin alive.

I can understand it not having carry potential in a Shuffle environment because when you can’t actively communicate, damage is king. Even at the top ratings, utility will take a back seat to damage simply because nobody is a mind reader.

That’s also probably why the Warrior cutoff is proportionately lower. Because most Warrior players will go in playing it like an Assassination Rogue and then eventually get hard stuck when their (potentially, idk I’m not playing game is bad lmao) lower damage isn’t enough to end games through the sheer power of ape.

Warriors have made a name for themselves in recent years by numlocking at a target while being nigh unpunishable and totally unpeelable by all but the single other class responsible for this decade long mobility arms race. It’s no surprise that people now hold it in contempt. The ultimate irony is that it is rarely ever even the OG kiting spec (Frost) that can control it.

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Nah, MoP had. Cata was too wizard focused because of that absurd trinket.

I mean what else is there to look at, ive given up thinking 3s will ever be “the arena” again. Id be very happy if they removed shuffle but they never will.

Well i think its important to also look at the current situation, just because warrior had good periods in SL doesnt mean it should feel like it does now, sure 10.2 might spice things up a bit but im pretty sure the fundamental issues will remain.

Spear of bastion is literally a dead talent because its so heavily nerfed into the ground. Dragons roar literally get dispelled left right and center. And they moved most of the dmg to bleeds so ur pressure is that of Assa rogue without the same abillity to control games via CC becaure ure not designed to cc entire teams. It lacks identity and for all intents and purpose its just a dmg bot nowadays that bring MS and Sharpen blade, intervene has been sht since we lost safeguard counduit in SL. They nerfed spellreflect to be next to useless imo, the only real counter abillity to casters reflecting 1 spell that can be taken off by any instant and im pretty sure even demo imp pets. It then gives u 20% magic dmg red for a few seconds. I basically use reflect as dmg reduction which isnt fun or engaging gameplay.

Defstance is next to useless since it was nerfed in SL so even if u pre defstance smthn ull prob die anyways.

Mage isnt the only issue, locks are very good nowadays too even if people dont talk about it. U could realistically perma kite a warrior if u use soulburn short port correctly around pillars. I tried chasing Jaggz, literally cant even connect because he has undispellable freedom half the game when he ports, so he would just run around the pillar untill it was gone and then insta gate, stay a few seconds, port back and repeat while using mostly insta casts doing good chunks of dmg. I guess its more of a symptome of instants nowadays aswell, not a lot of casters are forced to hardcast nowadays, so theyre free to just create distance and make as much anoyance as possible. Even ele is pretty wack, spam slow, root on ur charge, static totem on charge then move u, knock on charge into lasso, into a frost shock root. I feel like the game just needs to be simplified and remove all the micro cc inclouding alot of anoying mechanics, id be fine with removing 1 charge etc if they just pruned anoying stuff because its not fun.

I’m glad that we can at least partially see eye to eye. :rofl:

I mean yeah I don’t think anything meaningful is going to change at this point. The game is rotten at its core and nothing short of a full on reversion to something like a WotLK/Cata model will fix it in my eyes, personally.

If I had my way I’d probably give Warriors OG stances back. If Defensive Stance was an actual tradeoff (like Bear is for Druids) you could make it a meaningful mitigation tool. As it stands right now it’s either completely overpowered or utterly useless with no middle ground.

Unfortunately we’re now in an era where Melee are designed to have 100% uptime and Wizards are designed to either never cast or instantly one shot you the second that you do let them cast and none of it is healthy for the game. A no communication environment like Solo Shuffle only exacerbates the issue.

It’s not even like Blizzard could fix it piecemeal at this point. If they nerfed melee uptime without changing casters they’d make every non-UH DK melee unplayable overnight and vice versa.

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meaninful cc were with old cc durations before dozen cc’s and knockbacks were shoved for every class with df talents which made blizzard nerf all cc durations in game to compensate the ammount of everything spammed in shuffles

instead of prune the ammount of micro cc or making some new given abilities as choise nodes between two cc’s they drop durations of all for shuffle players sake

i find this stupid that i have 1min cd’s which used to have 5sec duration but are now gutted to 3sec because some dezided bloat game with too many and then shuffle player cry that there is too many and blizzard nerf all

i dont need scatter shot for sv nor ever asked for more cc i was fine with what i always had, i could gladly trade all this new away for old 5sec pet stun example

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Yh its pretty apparent that WoW pvp and prob WoW in general is at the ropes right now

They backed themselves into a corner that needs an entire overhaul of fundamental game design.


I didn’t like pruning because it makes most specs feel barebones and one-dimensional. You’re doing the same thing all the time. Legion PvP felt very scripted because of it. All battles played out the same and you had to rely on having a lucky crit to win.

There’s three main issues;

-bloating and poorly designed abilities, too many micro-ccs and procs. Giving all specs a stun, a disorient (etc.) doesn’t help either.
-the balance between casters, melee and healers is broken.
-the pacing is broken.

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idk played wow since vanil with various classes and never felt problem with too few or too many abilities or related cc in the game, its only in df with new talents and class designs where i think the game has become stupid, even to a degree where they had to do nerf on all cc in the game

i repeat i never wanted have scatter shot for sv example, it dr trap and removes conditions, its nice to use on off target to peel but meh i rather take 5sec duration for 1min ability back and give all new i dont need away if it means i can play the game with meaningful cc durations again instead some 3sec durations on 1min cd

i hate hunters who spam scatter random every 30sec and wipe all conditions their team has put so your just constantly inted by your own team, gl with anything that rely on something put on target in this circus of million abilities wiping them clean when we have mode full noobs and million abilities that act as reset for conditions